Europe III: April F-EU-Ls

[Cassius_Smoke]

It's come to a point where voting doesn't mean anything. Both main parties are pointless and voting anything else is a waste.

[Dogg Thang]

I have never understood the extent to which your media vilifies Corbyn and why they go out of their way to do so. Feels like he started with the right ideas. But when he could have stepped up and provided a proper and meaningful opposition for the benefit of your country, he has failed miserably to do so.

The problem now is that the issue is so large and so irreparable that nobody can pull you back from the damage this generation of politicians will cause. It will just be a case of trying to build something better out of what’s left later.

[gIzzE]

I was hit with a wave of hopelessness when I read that. How can there be no one willing to fight this? I don't want this, never did and with everything we now know it's suicide to keep pushing for it and yet here we are.

Part of me just thought, **** it, leavers are the only people anyone in government seems to care about, there's no point in even voting at the next general election. It's only the thought of continued Tory rule that's going to push me to vote Labour.

I've really had enough of his nonsense. I want someone able and willing to fight back against this government's horrific policies as well as Brexit. He can't do the former and won't do the latter. He needs to go.

The EU stands for everything Corbyn hates, he has been one of the most vocal anti EU politicians for the last 4 decades.

He has also built his whole career by simply saying what everyone else is doing wrong, which is easy, and fortunately enough for him gets lost of people who don't follow politics or economic effects of politics all nodding their head saying "He's right you know? He's bloddy right, the guy is a genius."

No he's not!
He is the master of stating the obvious knowing you can't go wrong by doing so as enough people will fall for it.

Find me a single interview he has done, to make it fairer a single interview since being in power, where he actually answers a question rather than deflects it to what someone else has done wrong.
The only rule is, his answer has to be achievable.
So not complete and utter bull**** like, "Well...we would negotiate to leave the EU but stay in the customs union and single market, but without paying in and ending free movement of people."

A genuine question that is important on any subject, answered with answer that could be delivered.

The guy is absolutely ****ting himself, if he became PM it would become very apparent, very quickly, that the guy has nothing to offer, everyone who knows him says he is a fantasist with Maxist dreams, he surrounds himself with people who either don't disagree with him or won't disagree with him. Plus the guy is meant to be a proper bully, I bet we see some truly horrific stuff come out about him when he is ousted.


He is starting to show his true colours and people are starting to see the charade.

[gIzzE]

The problem now is that the issue is so large and so irreparable that nobody can pull you back from the damage this generation of politicians will cause. It will just be a case of trying to build something better out of what’s left later.

A lot of people don't feel we need to be sucking on the EU's tit to survive.

WTO are now talking about offering the UK to move onto their article 44 deal, or whatever it is called, where we have completely tariff free trade with the whole of the world.
We can then decide to stay on that or negotiate trade deals going forward.
This would make the transition pretty much seamless for businesses next year, it would then be down to whether the EU wanted to make the border control worse for us and for the countries they are meant to be looking after.


I see Forbes has rated us pretty high again for the best countries to do business in for 2019.
Out of their 160 countries the UK has come in at number 1...again.
They were saying if we leave the EU that position will only be strengthened too.



Irish Border. 1.....2......3......?

[Cassius_Smoke]

I'd make the UK a corporate tax haven and flip the bird to the EU.

[gIzzE]

I'd make the UK a corporate tax haven and flip the bird to the EU.

We could quite easily set a tax rate that makes it the only sensible option for financial institutions to stay here.

[Cepp]

@Cepp I’m genuinely not even sure if I’d bother voting if there was a snap general election. Living in England, there’s no strong anti-Brexit party. Voted Labour for years, will never vote for them again after having Corbyn as leader; any party which can end up lead by someone like that can just do one.

Corbyn can eventually be replaced but in the meantime the Tory's are gutting public services left, right and centre. It's rough right now mate, but if apathy wins we're truly screwed.

A lot of people don't feel we need to be sucking on the EU's tit to survive.

WTO are now talking about offering the UK to move onto their article 44 deal, or whatever it is called, where we have completely tariff free trade with the whole of the world.
We can then decide to stay on that or negotiate trade deals going forward.
This would make the transition pretty much seamless for businesses next year, it would then be down to whether the EU wanted to make the border control worse for us and for the countries they are meant to be looking after.


I see Forbes has rated us pretty high again for the best countries to do business in for 2019.
Out of their 160 countries the UK has come in at number 1...again.
They were saying if we leave the EU that position will only be strengthened too.



Irish Border. 1.....2......3......?

You're living in a fantasy land. Nothing is going to be seamless, it's going to drag on for years and be a disaster. People will suffer and they'll be no tangible benefit at the end of it all for the majority of us. Whether we need the "EU's tit" to survive is neither here nor there. It's frankly, garbage language used to dismiss and deride a union that has brought peace and prosperity to hundreds of millions of people throughout Europe.

I'll tell you right now, I trust the EU a hell of a lot more with regulation and human rights than parliament. They'll sell us down the river in a heartbeat. Even more than they already have.

[gIzzE]

You're living in a fantasy land. Nothing is going to be seamless, it's going to drag on for years and be a disaster. People will suffer and they'll be no tangible benefit at the end of it all for the majority of us. Whether we need the "EU's tit" to survive is neither here nor there. It's frankly, garbage language used to dismiss and deride a union that has brought peace and prosperity to hundreds of millions of people throughout Europe.

I'll tell you right now, I trust the EU a hell of a lot more with regulation and human rights than parliament. They'll sell us down the river in a heartbeat. Even more than they already have.

I'm in footwear wholesale.
And also clothing and footwear retail.

My factories are in Portugal, Italy, France, Slovenia and India.
Trade 'could' be a complete none issue outside of the EU.
WTO really isn't an issue. WTO with a no tariff arrangement would see huge boosts to the UK economy immediately.

You have scare stories from people Like Dr. Ralf Speth at Jaguar Land Rover, of which none of his figures add up.
JLR are in the **** as they have bet on diesel, nothing more than not reading the market, saying they will wipe out nearly all profits due to WTO tariffs makes the man look the fool he is.


The EU project was a superb idea, a trading union that allowed people to move freely to work within it.
What it is turning in to is a ****ing mess, it is economically insolvent and the only way it can survive is if the members give up their sovereignty to the cause long term.
Just about every country within it is in a debt trap and it needs Germany and the UK to keep them afloat. That is not good for anyone in the EU.
The other net contributors are either not contributing anywhere near enough to have any purpose or are borrowing money to do it and getting into more and more of a debt trap.

The UK has lead the Human Rights and worker rights across the EU over the last 40 years, you have either either not followed the EU project over the last few decades or are not old enough to remember how much we have pushed them to come to our standards.

Anyway, it is what it is, I get for many it is a very scary prospect leaving, but it doesn't need to be. The world is changing fast and the EU is no where near as important as it was 10 years ago even and in another 10 years it will be even less so.

I am gutted we are leaving, but please, let's be realistic about it.

[Cassius_Smoke]

One thing I did read is that the EU are wrapped up in bureaucracy when it comes to decision making. Any new deals or laws have to be discussed with all parties and can take months or even years.
Outside the EU the UK could make new deals or laws within weeks... If we had the inclination and will.
The EU are quite concerned that the UK could get the jump on them and make them look stail.
I voted to remain, but if we are set to crash out we better be ready to hit the ground running.

[EvilBoris]

We aren’t ready to hit the ground running, this is meant to be the easier part of the negotiation. Once this is decided then all the real work begins to replace the countless EU services and centralised functions that we don’t have in UK anymore , as well as that there is the all important negotiations for all the trade related stuff that isn’t allowed to be discussed with other nations until after we leave .

[Cepp]

I'm in footwear wholesale.
And also clothing and footwear retail.

My factories are in Portugal, Italy, France, Slovenia and India.
Trade 'could' be a complete none issue outside of the EU.
WTO really isn't an issue. WTO with a no tariff arrangement would see huge boosts to the UK economy immediately.

You have scare stories from people Like Dr. Ralf Speth at Jaguar Land Rover, of which none of his figures add up.
JLR are in the **** as they have bet on diesel, nothing more than not reading the market, saying they will wipe out nearly all profits due to WTO tariffs makes the man look the fool he is.


The EU project was a superb idea, a trading union that allowed people to move freely to work within it.
What it is turning in to is a ****ing mess, it is economically insolvent and the only way it can survive is if the members give up their sovereignty to the cause long term.
Just about every country within it is in a debt trap and it needs Germany and the UK to keep them afloat. That is not good for anyone in the EU.
The other net contributors are either not contributing anywhere near enough to have any purpose or are borrowing money to do it and getting into more and more of a debt trap.

The UK has lead the Human Rights and worker rights across the EU over the last 40 years, you have either either not followed the EU project over the last few decades or are not old enough to remember how much we have pushed them to come to our standards.

Anyway, it is what it is, I get for many it is a very scary prospect leaving, but it doesn't need to be. The world is changing fast and the EU is no where near as important as it was 10 years ago even and in another 10 years it will be even less so.

I am gutted we are leaving, but please, let's be realistic about it.

First we're sucking at the EU tit and now the union's economically insolvent. Just stop with this nonsense.

"It is what it is" is incorrect. It can be stopped, and it should be. Leaving based off an advisory vote, that was won by the slimmest of majorities after electoral rules were broken, leave proponents lied through their teeth and Russia meddled, without even having a final vote to confirm if we should continue knowing what we now know, would be the largest act of self harm I've ever seen a nation commit.

That's being realistic.

[gIzzE]

First we're sucking at the EU tit and now the union's economically insolvent. Just stop with this nonsense.

"It is what it is" is incorrect. It can be stopped, and it should be. Leaving based off an advisory vote, that was won by the slimmest of majorities after electoral rules were broken, leave proponents lied through their teeth and Russia meddled, without even having a final vote to confirm if we should continue knowing what we now know, would be the largest act of self harm I've ever seen a nation commit.

That's being realistic.

Haha, get a grip of yourself.

Run some importing businesses that deal with EU and WTO imports daily and you may have a very different opinion on the realities of things.
The absolute bull**** I hear from those who can't believe Brexit is happening about all this is pathetic. (not aimed at anyone on here, more at politicians, financial institutions, corporates and media).

You seem a very angry young man. What industry are you in? What is making you quite so scared? Because you sound scared.

We aren’t ready to hit the ground running, this is meant to be the easier part of the negotiation. Once this is decided then all the real work begins to replace the countless EU services and centralised functions that we don’t have in UK anymore , as well as that there is the all important negotiations for all the trade related stuff that isn’t allowed to be discussed with other nations until after we leave .

Preparations should have started back in the summer of 2016.
The governments naivety thinking we could get a deal from the EU going about it the way they have done was pathetic and because they thought that they have not prepared enough.

It is a shambles, but any meaningful way of negotiating has been undermined at every stage by those that are trying everything within their power to cancel the decision.


I'm at the stage where I would rather it cancelled now, rather than be left hanging with May's deal.

However, I think it would be a real missed opportunity, certainly for smaller companies.

When they talk about GDP going down etc. it is all a bit disingenuous, when you sit and read through the reports (yeah I know I'm a sad twat, but been looking into this for the last few years now as it interests me.*) it is a lot of "worst case could be down 6%" and more like "probably down 2.5%" and when you break it down what we see is most of the largest corporations here may be down, however, lots of SMEs are thought to see an increase.
So we might actually see a bit of a rebalance. Problem with that is it doesn't fit the agenda of those who love to hate anything slightly right of thinking.

Many arguments I hear for remain simply make no sense, they are the opposite of what is really happening.




*Actually, what got me looking into all this a few years ago was me arguing the case for the EU with someone at a party, it turned out he was actually a financial lawyer who worked for the government in Brussels and really knew the workings of the EU inside out.
He got me top read a few documents and some of the laws on trading to try and convince me it was nothing more than one giant Ponzi scheme set up to look after the politicians, banks and corporates.
It worked.
I was also hitting 35 years old then, I think a lot changed for me between the age of around 35-37 on how I viewed the world. I started to work more with some people who were very wealthy and had lots of influence and the self serving nature of many and the back handers of them made me feel a bit sick.


I do completely get why so many feel so strongly about being part of the EU, I used to, but I do think you're being as naive as you no doubt think I am being a fooking idiot.




Anyway, Merry Christmas everyone, maybe it won't be as bad as many think?

Who Knows?


I don't expect any on here to agree with me, but it is how I feel.
I would stay in or out, for me I am gutted about the loss of moving freely to work etc. and liked the free trade, but feel it is not in the UKs best interest long term or for my kids to remain.

[Cepp]

Haha, get a grip of yourself.

Run some importing businesses that deal with EU and WTO imports daily and you may have a very different opinion on the realities of things.
The absolute bull**** I hear from those who can't believe Brexit is happening about all this is pathetic. (not aimed at anyone on here, more at politicians, financial institutions, corporates and media).

You seem a very angry young man. What industry are you in? What is making you quite so scared? Because you sound scared.

Of course I'm angry, I stand by everything I put in my last post.

It is a shambles, but any meaningful way of negotiating has been undermined at every stage by those that are trying everything within their power to cancel the decision.


I'm at the stage where I would rather it cancelled now, rather than be left hanging with May's deal.

The entire country could have been behind May and it still would have gone this way. It has nothing to do with people undermining her.

maybe it won't be as bad as we all think?

Who Knows?

I'm not pinning the future for myself and my family on a maybe.

[EvilBoris]

Preparations should have started back in the summer of 2016.
The governments naivety thinking we could get a deal from the EU going about it the way they have done was pathetic and because they thought that they have not prepared enough.

But the thing is they couldn't, prepare for something on such a large scale in such a short period.
It's almost like creating an entirely new country, an entirely new country that sits on infrastructure and foundations which are not easily changed.

For technical examples of how it can go wrong, even with planning, look at what happened with TSB lately and the NHS during the wannacry pandemic.

Unforunately people are naive and ignorant to this and voted to leave based upon some kind of hypothetical situation that our political system would all of a sudden change from a system that requires endless arguing and discusion to get a democratic result, to a system where everyone suddenly agrees. Not only do they suddenly agree, but you can instantly create new goverment departments, recruit for them and action huge projects in such a short timeframe.

This is all without knowing how it was going to end up come March 2019.


Hopefully it won't be the doomdays scenario it could be, but I find it all upsetting and frustrating to see how difficult it is, when this was being said before this all started.

[gIzzE]

I'm not pinning the future for myself and my family on a maybe.

I'm afraid you don't have a choice.

I know it seems incredibly scary right now, any nothing anyone says will change that for you, but it won't be anywhere near as bad as many are making out. A lot of very vocal people have a lot riding on being part of the EU project and they will try as hard they can to convince us all they have our interests in mind, the reality is vert different.