Europe III: April F-EU-Ls

[Asura]

Bless him, God loves a tryer

I worry that if there was an election now, UKIP might do well. They probably have a contigious block of voters; the tories and Labour are in such disarray.

[MartyG]

Polling would suggest otherwise, whilst there is a very tiny increase, it's nowhere near enough to win seats in a FPTP system, they were polling much high in 2015 / 2016.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/voting-intention-2

[MartyG]

The trouble for the EU is that whether it's an overall good thing for member nations or not it doesn't communicate that well enough to the public who's only real relationship with it comes from them being a faceless body and from the media.

The EU can't escape the vilification they get almost daily from the likes of the Daily Mail. They do publicise what they're doing, on their website and on Twitter - they're far more transparent than our own government.

There's really not a lot they can do if people instead choose to get their information from questionable sources.

Their main website could probably do with a bit of a redesign mind.

[noobish hat]

I'm sure they could muster the resources to have Dacre and Rothermere assassinated. I'd happily chip in if they're short a bob or two.

[Dogg Thang]

The EU can't escape the vilification they get almost daily from the likes of the Daily Mail. They do publicise what they're doing, on their website and on Twitter - they're far more transparent than our own government.

There's really not a lot they can do if people instead choose to get their information from questionable sources.

Their main website could probably do with a bit of a redesign mind.

That's exactly it. Like I've said before, there have been decades of this. Even if people don't buy the Daily Mail or the like, they see the headlines every single day. It's constant exposure, lifetimes of it and it sinks in eventually. And we know it's far harder to correct lies than it is for people to buy big lies. And even when corrected, as we've seen with so many Brexit lies, people are so deep in that the truth no longer matters.

[QualityChimp]

That's exactly it. Like I've said before, there have been decades of this. Even if people don't buy the Daily Mail or the like, they see the headlines every single day. It's constant exposure, lifetimes of it and it sinks in eventually. And we know it's far harder to correct lies than it is for people to buy big lies. And even when corrected, as we've seen with so many Brexit lies, people are so deep in that the truth no longer matters.

[MartyG]

Exactly - people actually still believe the complete fallacy that is the bendy banana thing - I seem to recall it was even posted in this former thread before the great forum wipe of 2018.

[Neon Ignition]

It's not just the likes of the Daily Mail though for the EU, it's a spreading issue in multiple areas of the EU and them having info etc on their website etc is a bit like Corbyn putting up his plans and what he does on Labours website then never engaging with the people he oversees. They will know they have an image problem, like their repeated attempts to cover MEP expense abuse, but they lack a ground level transparency and communication that would help make a big difference to their issues with the public. It's fuelled by other issues too but ultimately most don't trust their own MP's so MEP's and the EU have a much tougher chance earning that faith. Given its supporters preference for it, it shouldn't be that hard for them to win the public minds. They can carry on as is, but Brexit aside there's rough times ahead if they don't reflect on themselves more.

[Dogg Thang]

So you’re basically saying the EU needs to take a bit of time to figure out how stupid people can be less stupid.

[Asura]

So you’re basically saying the EU needs to take a bit of time to figure out how stupid people can be less stupid.

I share your frustration [MENTION=3144]Dogg Thang[/MENTION], but yes. They're a political organisation; they can't just fold their arms and think "it's no good, everyone's too much of an idiot". They have to constantly do the best they can to push their agenda, even in the face of adversity. They're a democratic organisation; they can't seriously say "we're fine, it's the people that are the problem".

Humanity's a bit ****, when it comes down to it, but that's just the way it is.

[Dogg Thang]

Yeah, I just feel all these words holding the EU accountable for the damage and misinformation done by media, Daily Mail, right-wing or otherwise, would be better directed at holding that media, Daily Mail, right-wing or otherwise accountable. Lots of words here are the equivalent of the announcements in stations not to be pick-pocketed rather than tackling pick-pockets. Or piracy warnings on bought DVDs. It’s misdirected. It also allows people to make it someone else’s problem rather than accepting their own house is the problem, which is Brexit in a nutshell.

[Neon Ignition]

It's not that the EU is responsible for everything and the UK, Italy, Greece etc are its victims, just that as much as each member country has to take responsibility for its own decisions so does the EU that taking a nonchalant attitude to obvious red flags within its membership and structure isn't the way forward. Even if the UK finally wakes up to the reality it's now found itself in and goes back cap in hand, the EU and in turn the UK are going to be facing several issues to address within the union as well as between each other and preventing an eventual revival of a Brexit movement here or in other countries will require more action than they've typically shown.

But likewise, the point about the media is correct. It's never made sense that the freedom of the press exists in the form it does. As much as free countries should prevent state controlled media they should also mandate that any press/news media outlet is held accountable for everything that they report on. There are rules but no-one could pretend they're remotely suitable given the sheer amount of bias, motivated spinned tripe they put out and it's long past due that tighter rules were introduced to ensure that if they're going to try and selectively report, they at least have better standards of fact checking and presenting to their audience and face severe outcomes for failing to maintain standards.

[Neon Ignition]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/31/eu-fears-short-article-50-extension-will-mean-no-deal-brexit-in-june

EU officials think May will extend Article 50 but will rig the extension by making it too short to do anything to avoid no deal due to cowering in fear of upsetting pro-Brexit MP's rather than opt for a longer extension.

[Dogg Thang]

It's not that the EU is responsible for everything and the UK, Italy, Greece etc are its victims, just that as much as each member country has to take responsibility for its own decisions so does the EU that taking a nonchalant attitude to obvious red flags within its membership and structure isn't the way forward. Even if the UK finally wakes up to the reality it's now found itself in and goes back cap in hand, the EU and in turn the UK are going to be facing several issues to address within the union as well as between each other and preventing an eventual revival of a Brexit movement here or in other countries will require more action than they've typically shown.

But likewise, the point about the media is correct. It's never made sense that the freedom of the press exists in the form it does. As much as free countries should prevent state controlled media they should also mandate that any press/news media outlet is held accountable for everything that they report on. There are rules but no-one could pretend they're remotely suitable given the sheer amount of bias, motivated spinned tripe they put out and it's long past due that tighter rules were introduced to ensure that if they're going to try and selectively report, they at least have better standards of fact checking and presenting to their audience and face severe outcomes for failing to maintain standards.

Yep. I think you’re right. As for your first point and my frustration, it often feels like you are wishing for the EU to fail. It is not destined to fail. But it can certainly be made to fail. Here’s the reality - in the entire history of the continent, things in Europe have never been better than they have been in the EU. People seem to forget that the default state of being historically in Europe has been war. Even on the most basic level, the EU is a very, very good thing: it is countries and people working together. Even small kids get that this is a good thing.

But you (and not just you of course but you’re leaders in your field) have allowed media to undermine it for decades while pushing right-wing messages and endlessly looking for scapegoats. You have given the likes of Farage no end of air time while more rational and actually elected politicians get precious little. There are many outside your country who have a vested interest in the destabilisation this brings. And it has worked. It has taken hold. You are leaving the EU and returning to a more insular, xenophobic and self-centred way of life. And yeah, that’s not good for the EU. And some other countries (not least of which is the US, a world giant) are going through similar things and, yes, that risks the destabilisation of the EU. But your country is leading the field here. You have let this happen. You’re making it happen.

So yes, it is very frustrating when you pull the “she shouldn’t have been wearing a short skirt” thing here. As you say, SF, you have to sort your accountability out. Not just for the likes of the Daily Mail but for your politicians and those you give airtime to. You (and I mean you personally) have effectively shrugged your shoulders at the lies the Leave campaign told and pulled the “well both sides” thing. That’s not accountability. That’s the problem. And after you leave the EU, you’ll be alone to sort it out. You’re on your own and hopefully (but hardly likely) you’ll look to yourselves and work to really make things better for all of you.

For those of us still in the EU and who want to be there, we’re looking for it to succeed. We’re hoping to work together. Not just because it benefits all of us (and it does and that’s obvious) but because the default in Europe before it has been war. So I hope you’ll leave us to it and genuinely wish us well.

And get Farage off the television.

[Neon Ignition]

For me personally, it's not wanting the EU to fail so much as wanting it to be a lot more socially self-aware, transparent in its accountability than it is and responsive to the serious issues its member nations face. For as much positive that the EU has been responsible for it's also stubbornly deaf on other matters and concerns and the public has little in the way of a direct voice with it. There's certainly a scepticism I have for them, a healthy one I'd say as I wouldn't trust our MP's as far as I could throw them (few would) so the level of trust some have for the EU and MEP's bewilders me. It's typically said that we vote MP's to act on our behalf with their decisions, judgments and actions and so those who are involved with or within the EU either as MEP's or other are fine because it's an extension of this but the cold reality is that MP's are demonstrably self-interested and very often morally and actionably corrupt. If the EU is faced by a turn of the tide in a member nation either in support or regarding a key social issue then its usual shoulder shrug reaction leads to a counter reaction that shouldn't be a surprise.

As much as the media fuelled anti-EU sentiment, and then you had the likes of UKIP stoking up more, I still remain very doubtful that those combined numbers were enough to get to a Leave win. I think you can top that figure up to an extent by accounting for generational voting; you had a generation or two of voters who either fought or were directly raised by those who fought to stop foreign bodies getting to say or control anything in the UK and were raised during an era that prioritised that mindset. As much as the EU prevents conflict within the Eurozone it's a powerful lasting sentiment to ignore as a factor in some of its member states. Even then I don't think Leave had the numbers but you can add other camps etc and I think that when Cameron came back from the EU empty handed (which wasn't a surprise or in many ways unfair but it was presented in a very definitive manner that wasn't the right tone for that time as it fed anti-EU sentiment too easily) and he started project fearing in the favour of Remain (the public already being wary of trusting MP's and having just seen the show with the Scottish Referendum) you had a collective number who had just become so exasperated by the impression that MP's and the EU didn't listen or respond that the referendum gave them a voice.

Looking back, even with the nego-cee-ations being nowhere near done, they could have rerun the referendum after just 12 months and Remain would win. As much as Brexit is a big issue and a major ongoing news piece I think enough of the voting public would feel like they've vented that frustration out and Leave would never get the required numbers out again in another vote. The EU has a strong connection to the countries and governments that it works with but a disconnect from the people in those countries or at least enough of them that there are clear issues developing increasingly and hopefully they don't see Brexit as an anomaly or an isolated event, it could very easily be the first flash fire of several if they don't engage better.


Re: the Leave campaign lies. I think I don't spend too much time considering them because I see them as one of many factors. As much as some were influenced by them it's a difficult one to quantify, just as much as the remain fibs influence are and I feel it's unlikely that Osborne crying the sky will fall or Boris gurning in front of a red bus caused a mass sea of change of opinion for most. A much more impactful one is the long running media slurring against the EU we've talked about which clearly bred over the long term into public thinking and raises a lot of questions about how media as a whole should be operating.

As for Farage, well, I'm deeply hopeful that the Mueller investigation will join those dots to Farage and Trump. What a glorious day that would be :thumbs: