Europe IV: The Final Hour

[Neon Ignition]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/nov/27/general-election-leaders-try-to-steer-campaign-away-from-race-and-faith-live

Could this be one of Labours biggest campaign moments?

Corbyn has just made a speech on the NHS during which he revealed that Labour has uncovered and is in possession of a dossier detailing leaked information which evidences secret trade talks between the Tories and the US that directly relate to claims of screwing over the NHS. The 451 dossier includes:

-US desire for longer patents leading to higher drug costs
-Total market access as a baseline
-The document specifically states that only specified elements are excluded from trade agreement with the US, the entirety of the NHS is not on that list
-Page 43 shows the US offering the Tories precanned lines to tell the UK public to defend the sale of chlorinated chicken in the future
-Page 17 reveals that the US won't permit reference to climate change within any agreed trade deal with the UK

Labour then handed out copies of the dossier to journalists in the audience.

Johnsons key defence is expected to be that most of the timeframe the dossier covers was before he became Prime Minister however the expected counter-argument is that no-one in the world is going to believe that May was secretly pursuing this yet Johnson isn't himself.

[Dogg Thang]

None of that should be a surprise to anyone and I think that's probably the problem here - the people who would be turned off by this (really everyone) should have been turned off in advance of this dossier turning up. Maybe it will horrify a couple of people but I can't help feeling it's not going to change a lot of minds. This is the Tories. They will sell off your assets, your country and yourselves. This is what should be expected from them.

[MartyG]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...and-faith-live

Could this be one of Labours biggest campaign moments?

No, because it doesn't show what Corbyn is claiming it shows.

You can see that for yourself by reading them: https://openload.cc/M8MbD08fn7/OFFIC...WG_READOUT_zip

[Cepp]

None of that should be a surprise to anyone and I think that's probably the problem here - the people who would be turned off by this (really everyone) should have been turned off in advance of this dossier turning up. Maybe it will horrify a couple of people but I can't help feeling it's not going to change a lot of minds. This is the Tories. They will sell off your assets, your country and yourselves. This is what should be expected from them.

My dad's still convinced nothing's going to happen to the NHS... He relies on it a lot with medication as well. I doubt anything will change his mind

[Neon Ignition]

The key detail is that the document doesn't not say it either when really and trade safeguarding against it probably should. In any case it's about whether Labour can convince the public that the Tories are planning it whether it's in the document. I have to say, at the bare minimum it's hilarious watching Johnson etc complaining about Corbyn telling lies to the public given the catalogue of whoppers they have in their own cabinet. The hope will likely be that voters see images of Corbyn with a physical document in his hands that he says is evidence of it and then see Johnson relying solely on 'but trust me' as a defence, something even pro-Tory voters are shakey of doing when it comes to Boris.

[Asura]

This whole election (and Trump's whole ethos) makes me wonder; what does it take to make people at large switch their vote from one party to another?

It just feels like these sorts of stories entrench people even more, rather than really swaying people. Trump had a point, shockingly (a broken clock is right twice a day after all) - could he genuinely murder someone in the street and still have people vote for him?

[MartyG]

The key detail is that the document doesn't not say it either when really and trade safeguarding against it probably should. In any case it's about whether Labour can convince the public that the Tories are planning it whether it's in the document. I have to say, at the bare minimum it's hilarious watching Johnson etc complaining about Corbyn telling lies to the public given the catalogue of whoppers they have in their own cabinet. The hope will likely be that voters see images of Corbyn with a physical document in his hands that he says is evidence of it and then see Johnson relying solely on 'but trust me' as a defence, something even pro-Tory voters are shakey of doing when it comes to Boris.

With fake news? How does that make them any better than the Tories?

People are fine with things like this it seems, so long as it holds with their confirmation bias, but it's really no different than Johnson claiming there will be two referendums next year if Corbyn wins.

[charlesr]

Front page of the fail was a disgrace again today. They are so going out of business soon - they are desperate if that's the best they can do to get people to give them money

[Neon Ignition]

It's weaponising fake news but I guess it's a reflection of how far the needle has moved. It's easy for voters to overlook politicians lying because it's seen that they always have, at some point though the Tories seem to have jumped on the concept that if you tell a massive lie repeatedly enough then your base will think that surely it must be true. It's completely wrong but I think it's a sad state of affairs that taking the high ground for Labour or the Dems in the US will just result in their annihilation. For the Dems they still seem unsure of what to do, for Labour it seems that weaponising these claims is the best way to claw onto the fight. Regrettably they're likely right given the Tories can't tell the truth at all about the opposition or themselves.

[Neon Ignition]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/27/dominic-cummings-tells-brexiters-election-is-tighter-than-it-looks

Cummings pokes his head up to beg Leave Voters to convince their friends to save Brexit and vote tory by... lying to them

[Neon Ignition]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/28/bags-for-life-making-plastic-problem-worse-say-campaigners

Plastic use in supermarkets rises... due to the introduction of the plastic bag charge aimed at reducing plastic bag use. Chalk another one up to the 'quick react without the use of common sense' chart along with the plastic straw ban as the obvious consumer shift they failed to anticipate happened. Basically, faced with being charged for plastic bags and being encouraged to reuse ones they owned consumers switched to buying the longer lasting bigger and thicker Bag for Life versions of the bags. Due to the collapse in sales for standard bags supermarkets stopped stocking them for the most part forcing almost everyone to make the shift. Due to the amount of materials involved this actually had the net result of increasing plastic waste use by the supermarkets.

There are now calls for the Bag for Life versions to either have their price hiked up to 70p per bag or to outright ban them from sale. I wonder how that will go...

[cutmymilk]

Well, yeah. We need bags and quite often forget to take our own or simply don't have one. Are bags for life meant to be traded for new ones when they break? Because I have never seen anyone do that.

Now, if they only sold the £2 bags (I have the Star Wars Tesco variant) shoppers would make sure they have bags! I certainly would.

[Neon Ignition]

That's it, we buy less bags than we used to but a Bag for Life they certainly aren't so we're always going to need them and if they're the ones available then the issue again lies with the retailer and those pressuring that change. There'd be two alternatives then, paper bags which would last 2 seconds and see huge increases in felled trees or those heavier duty canvass style ones which would be a whole other complaint no doubt when sales erupt of those. It reeks of the plastic straw ban which was been a right flop as well, they need to start properly focusing on pressuring local authorities, businesses and the government to do what they said they were doing and should have been doing in the first place - proper recycling.

[Neon Ignition]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/nov/28/general-election-labour-launches-environment-policies-as-johnson-wary-of-tv-climate-debate-live

The IFS have reviewed the Labour and Tory manifestos. In short, Labours math is way off as usual and a vote for the Tories is unquestionably a vote for 5 more years of austerity

Meanwhile Johnson has done his usual act - ducking out of a debate tonight like a coward.

[wakka]

I don't understand why they don't issue the thin old style ones at all any more. The thicker bulkier ones are just a pain. Also, my fault, but I always forget so I have enough of them for about 200 lifetimes at this point.