Europe IV: The Final Hour

[Dogg Thang]

Honestly, if you don't think the media played a role in how we got to where we are, Corbyn included, that feels incredibly naive. If anything, the power of the media should be coming into real focus right now. In fact I'd go as far as to say that you can pretty much trace the entire trajectory of how we got here by the media finding the likes of Katie Hopkins and Farage as entertaining rather than dangerous. The media is playing a massive role and of course how Corbyn has been portrayed is an issue.

[MartyG]

It plays a factor sure, but it's not the reason why Labour lost. If people want to cling onto that as a lifelife (and that appears what Momentum are doing whilst sticking to their hard left policies), so be it, but it will not help Labour win.

[charlesr]

This guy is obviously massively biased so it's then tough to take him seriously without assuming the whole thing needs fact checking.

https://thecorrespondent.com/177/the-biggest-story-in-the-uk-is-not-brexit-its-life-expectancy/197470651092-d2e0df85

[Dogg Thang]

Unless those voters all ditched Labour because they know Corbyn personally, then everything they know and everything a headline like that refers to comes with an added "as portrayed by the media". You can pretty much sum it up by how Schofield dealt with Corbyn versus how he dealt with Johnson. That has an effect. I'm not saying Corbyn wasn't a bad leader and shouldn't take responsibility for his role but how the media has portrayed him for years, along with how they're portraying else, is a huge, huge factor in where we are right now.

[MartyG]

We'll just have to disagree on that - Corbyn has had plenty of opportunities to stick the knife into the Tories and he hasn't managed to do it - that's on the Labour leadership, not the media - using the media as the scapegoat misses the nuances, the media didn't invent Corbyn's stance on the military, or brexit or the unions or association with terrorist sympathisers or his floundering on antisemitism. He did those things himself and gave the media the ammunition.

He didn't win the hearts and minds of voters and he's still trying to cling-on to the leadership at a time when the Labour party should be moving on from Corbynism and they won't be able to do that freely if Corbyn is hanging around. If the country's voting bias is further to the right of centre, sticking to the hard left isn't going to work any more in the future than it is in the now.

[Dogg Thang]

Oh man, I almost feel like your post there pretty much sums up exactly what I'm talking about. Anyway, that issue aside, there is a more obvious point here too which is probably an even less pleasant point. As others have pointed out, those votes could have gone anywhere else (and I realise that some did). But the bottom line here is that lots of people voted for the Tories, with all that brings with it. It's not just that Corbyn or Labour lost because, really, if people wanted better then they should have been voting for anyone, anything, other than the Tories. It's that the Tories very clearly won. It's hard to see a situation in which Corbyn would have been better or indeed a different Labour leader could have been better in a way that would bring those voters to Labour. As others have pointed out, people voted right wing. I don't think a different face on Labour would have changed that. A whole different right-leaning Labour? Perhaps but, honestly, I don't think so. Not yet. I think people voted for what they wanted, for better or worse.

[MartyG]

The two party political system in the UK fostered by the first past the post system doesn't help in that regard, however, the biggest shift in voting wasn't towards the Tories, it was to the LibDems. The Tories only increased their vote share by 1.2%.

[Dogg Thang]

The Tories only increased their vote share by 1.2%.

Yep, and that's not much at all - that's fair enough. But I think given the history of what's happened over the last few years, that it didn't drop massively and has gained at all seems like a very clear sign to me of where large parts of the country are at. In spite of everything, they still came out and voted Tory.

I think I would perceive things very differently if they had dropped hugely but other votes were spread across the other parties so still came out as the winners.

[MartyG]

I don't disagree that there tends to be a leaning to the right in this country, but that fact is then counter to the argument that it's the media's fault as it simply that means people prefer the stance & policies of the right over the stance & policies of the left, so to win back votes you need to shift away from the hard left.

[gIzzE]

In regard to Labours loss, why is everyone blaming the media?
Labour and their die hard supporters need to take some responsibility.

Most people hate Corbyn for a start. He is anti UK, he is anti business, he is friends with, and supports, the IRA, Hezbollah, and any other faction that is anti west, he is a racist, a mysogynist, a control freak and he is not trusted, whether you agree with that or not, the fact of the matter is many people see much of those things in him.
He is vile individual who puts his marxist far left wing ideals before the people he is meant to be representing. History has told us that, he put his London socialist elite before the rest of the countries labour voters, he refused to step down when he lost a vote of no confidence and has not stepped down now. If you can't see Corbyn is all about his Marxist uptopia before anything else then I think you need to remove the blinkers.

The press didn't kill off Corbyn, Corbyn killed off Corbyn.
The more he spoke, the more stuff he gave away, the more people started to see through the facade.
If they had given Labour their own news channel to run, Corbyn, Rayner, Abbott, Long-Bailey etc. etc. would have done even more damage.
Labour underestimated the UK's intelligence, they seriously thought you were all too thick to understand the economical impact their manifesto would have on the country, that smuggness bit them on the arse big time!

Labour let working people down, they scowl at people who aspire to be middle class, they want everyone to 'need' them, the issue they have is the majority of the UK is middle class now, that is something the Corbynisters can't abide, they are loosing their core voters.
When you get out of London and into the old Labour areas they are a very different place to what they were the last time Labour got back in, and we have a generation of voters up there who aren't still banging on about Maggie as well, and they don't actually think life is that bad.

London, for the majority of people, if an absolute cesspit of a city now. It feels dirty, houses are ridiculous prices, the crime, the lack of policing, the cost of living etc. etc. just isn't great.
Nearly all my London lot have moved out over the last 10-15 years or so, and they were in nice areas too, not the proper ****holes. they were in Notting Hill, Chelsea, Hamstead, Dulwich Village, Camden, Clapham etc. and they have all had enough.
So if you live in London I can totally get why you would be voting for change. The problem for Corbyn and current Labour is they were caught up in that London bubble, all they heard is "Labour we love you" and they thought that is what the country thought too. Well they didn't.

Many of the London votes were from died in the wool Labour voters who simply won't vote for any one else, however, many voted Labour despite Corbyn and the current Labour policies. Many did so through very gritted teeth.

They also see these people at the top in the Labour party as a complete contradiction.
They are all sat in their big houses in the best parts of London with kids in private schools preaching to them about a fairer society.
Corbyn gave his friends jobs who then often gave their family jobs, and virtually none of them were qualified to be in the positions they held.
It is exactly what they are saying is wrong with the country, people at the top looking after their own, yet that is exactly what they are doing.
The electorate aren't all stupid.

Then you have vile individuals like Thornberry, she was kept off the campaign trail as they know she is despised by huge chunks of the UK.
She looks down on every one, she thinks the UK population are stupid and shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion, let alone a vote on anything. She is also not patriotic in any way at all, when she tweeted the remarks about a working class man with the St George flag outside his house, and when she sits their rolling her eyes when discussing the UKs 'right to vote on Brexit' and just her body language when talking about UK voters, it tells you everything you need to know about her.
Now some might like that, because some people are vile themselves, but the majority don't, and she is just typical of current Labour.

The majority see them a self serving party that had far too far left views and a party that was prepared to get the country into serious economical trouble to get in power, with a nasty racist bastard that believes the Jews are to blame for capitalism and everything that is wrong with the world.
The press didn't do anything, Corbyn and Labour's far left views are what killed Labour, but the excuses will just keep coming.

[Dogg Thang]

Okay, firstly, I don’t tend to use the word ‘fault’ like there is a single cause of blame here. Secondly, a right leaning does not in any way run counter to the argument that the media is involved in this picture given that many tabloids are right leaning and we’ve seen the most left leaning Labour leader in years villainised by the portions of the media. If anything, this backs it up.

And as for shifting away from hard left, sure. It’s what the country seems to want. Wanting to win votes in this scenario is pointless if you lean left. But yes, if the goal is to win votes rather than actually doing something good for the country then, yes, it would be a good idea now for a party to compete directly with the Tories by being more like them. Which is a damning indictment of the UK.

[gIzzE]

Nearly everyone I know who is, and always has been, Labour voters, either voted despite Corbyn and McDonnell or they voted Tory as they found the spending absurd and think that Corbyn is not someone they want in charge of our country.

It is like a good customer of mine said on Thursday after voting, I voted Labour all my life, I voted remain, and yet, I have just voted Conservative for the first time in my life because their economics stacked up better and I think Boris is not as bad as Corbyn.
That was a lecturer and his wife, also a lecturer, and should have been a definite vote for Labour.

I think that is what Labour are still not getting.

Reaminers, Labour remainers at that, saw the conservatives as a less worse option.

Until the reality of that sets in Labour are finished.

160 seat majority is hard to come back by, we basically have 2 terms of Johnson now. That is what current Labour have done with their refusal to listen to what people were telling them.

[Brad]

I wanted a second referendum but thinking about it that’s what this election was, and people still voted leave basically. That’s how I’m reading it anyway. It’s a shame because I think that they think it’ll make things better for them but I don’t think it will.

I’m over it now. Fight knocked out of me. I’ll just look after my own and see what happens. My god that sounds so Tory...

[Dogg Thang]

I wanted a second referendum but thinking about it that’s what this election was, and people still voted leave basically. That’s how I’m reading it anyway. It’s a shame because I think that they think it’ll make things better for them but I don’t think it will.

I’m over it now. Fight knocked out of me. I’ll just look after my own and see what happens. My god that sounds so Tory...

Yeah, I can understand that. I feel very similar. Not even just about leave or remain but just that I don’t feel much hope.

[prinnysquad]

I’ve rarely seen a post so utterly contemptuous of reality and context. It reads like a column by that Parsons tosspot in the Sun on Sunday. Hats off to Jizzer.