America & World IV: Trump's Taxing Day

[fishbowlhead]

No fishbowlhalffull, that's not what was said.

He's already not getting away with everything - he's lost his PGA tour date as it's been taken away from his golf course - Trump likes the prestige, taking that away from someone who's so narcassistic is going to sting, hard. He's losing his big financial donors, which will hurt his campaigning. He's been kicked off most of the social media platforms which really limits his ability to reach people.

And it's likely that trying to pardon himself will be legally challenged and won due to the "judge/jury" fundamental of law. Even if he is able to pardon himself, it will NOT stop prosecution outside the Federal and the district of Colombia jurisdiction, or civil prosecutions - and as has already been established, there are six such prosecutions waiting for when he leaves office currently (sitting presidents cannot be charged outside of impeachment).

In terms of pardoning someone who's not yet been convicted, yes, you can (Gerald Ford pardoned Nixon in just this way). The president cannot pardon for crimes that have not yet been committed though, so he cannot give someone blanket immunity for all time.

Like it or not, Trump is still entitled to due process.

Ill believe it when i see it, any kind of punishment that is.

[MartyG]

It's an utter failure of the system that it's harder to remove a twice impeached criminal white supremacist from the role of President than it is to remove a spotty teenager from their role at Card Factory for constantly mislabelling the beareavement card section prices

Two issues with this:

1) impeachment is not a criminal process (there is not the same requirement of burdon of proof)

and

2) Trump has no criminal conviction

The issue isn't the system - the system and process is actually pretty solid - if you lowered the requirement to uphold impeachment from a super majority, you'd get Presidents thrown out every month on political whims. The problem is that self-serving politicians are not following the system - instead voting based on what's best for re-election, rather than best for the country and there's not an easy solution for this. If you lower the bar, you open the gates to allow politicians like Marjorie Taylor Green being able to swing presidencies - you really don't want that happening.

You need the people to elect a higher-quality politician :/

[Dogg Thang]

There is definitely a system issue. The system generally seems to prevent electing a higher-quality politician. Not saying I have the answer but there is a problem in there somewhere. One element in all this that has become increasingly clear over the last few years is that the 'left' and 'right' of US politics does not actually reflect the people. It comes up often as a flaw in centrism that the centre can shift wildly and, ultimately, it serves to benefit those in power because they can push to their own extremes and that in turn shifts the centre. This has always been apparent. What wasn't apparent to me, however, until quite recently is how that centre is about political positions, not about the views of the country. Just as one example, in politics the idea of single payer healthcare is still painted as a pretty far left idea and too much for the US political system. And yet many polls over the last few years have shown that the majority of US people support it. The left/right narrative in politics does not reflect what's going on with people.

And that means there is a system problem.

[MartyG]

By "The System" I was referring to the impeachment process, rather than the larger political circus.

There is no perfect political system, even a utopia has its problems.

[Dogg Thang]

Ah okay. Yeah.

[Neon Ignition]

One simple thing that would at least slightly filter the recent risks, a job description for the role stating prior relevant political experience is essential for the role. It's utterly moronic that Trump was ever elligible to run without ever having put in any of the graft or having any of the necessary knowledge.

[Golgo]

There is no perfect political system, even a utopia has its problems.

There is no such thing as a 'perfect utopia'. It's a contradiction in terms, one that was intended by Thomas More when he wrote the book in 1516. It literally means the 'non-place' or 'impossible place'. Hell, the main narrator of the society of Utopia is a man called Raphael Nonsenso.

[MartyG]

One simple thing that would at least slightly filter the recent risks, a job description for the role stating prior relevant political experience is essential for the role. It's utterly moronic that Trump was ever elligible to run without ever having put in any of the graft or having any of the necessary knowledge.

I'm not sure that's the issue - the problem is not so much one of experience (you have a whole team of advisors for that), it's one of character.

[Dogg Thang]

And yet it does feel like there should be some minimum requirements. It feels so weird that they put rules in place to stop young people getting the job and yet any unqualified lunatic over a certain age can get it. Or are there many other restrictions I'm not aware of?

[MartyG]

You have to be a natural born US citizen and resident for a set number of years too, IIRC - oh, and have plenty of money.

[fishbowlhead]

I'm not sure that's the issue - the problem is not so much one of experience (you have a whole team of advisors for that), it's one of character.

I’m sure even the most rudimentary of independent and monitored tests would of stopped trumple from getting into power. I’d put money on his physiological exam being doctored as well to ensure he passed, again no one knows anything about it, could of been carried out by a team of otters for all anyone knows.

[Neon Ignition]

I think it's because it comes from an over interpretation of the concept that anyone could be President when at no point in history has that been true. Even with a team of advisors to rely on I couldn't be the CEO of Apple, especially given that as the CEO I'd oversee who was my advisors. It's exposed the clear stupidity of the American political system because it doesn't require the President to be experienced and know what they're doing but simply assumes it. The two party deadlock though prevents common sense changes to the system being made or thew required amendments going through to the constitution because owning the other side is more important to them than improving anything.

I'm unsure if Trump will wriggle out the second impeachment. The thing is an awful lot of Republican politicians want Trump's base but don't want it at the expense of their own career ambitions and they don't want to fathom the impacts a second term would involve either. Also, if Trump forever remains outside the realm of accountability in any meaningful way it will mean that they lose the ability to ever again hold a Democratic President to account. I can't imagine how much harder the last 4yrs have made removing a Democratic President for the Republicans now that they've allowed the bar to be moved so far which is one of the reasons that impeachment for Biden video is so daft.

I'm not sure that senior Republicans will look at the weak position they're now in for the coming years and think that they want to suffer four years of batterings just to concede all control and narrative back to Trump again so he can further erode them into the Trump Party at the expense of their own careers. They've gotten their use from him and have an awful lot of personal gain to be made by blocking him from a second run at office whilst it being recorded as being the Democrats responsibility it happened under.

[MartyG]

I'm unsure if Trump will wriggle out the second impeachment. The thing is an awful lot of Republican politicians want Trump's base but don't want it at the expense of their own career ambitions and they don't want to fathom the impacts a second term would involve either

Rejecting Trump means rejecting his base and therefore their votes, so doing so would be at risk of their own career ambitions - at least in the medium term. Even now, polling shows the majority of Rebuplican voters want Trump as their candidate in 2024 by a huge margin: https://www.wlox.com/2021/01/14/most...te-poll-finds/

Perhaps one change that does need to be made to the impeachment process is one of secret ballots.

[nonny]

Are we there yet?

[fishbowlhead]

Are we there yet?

Not yet. Check back in 5 impeachments time.