United Kingdom VII: Taking Pride in Your Success

[charlesr]

I can't really dispute that because I'm not a linguist and honestly know nowhere near enough about Latin to have any informed opinion but I do wonder when I hear things like this if it would have been of even more benefit to put the time into English grammar or another language that has similar roots but can actually be used. It's just, as an uninformed person, it's very difficult to understand how learning an entire dead language in order to help learn other things is more efficient than just putting some more time into learning those other things.

Latin is one of the purer languages. English is all over the place. Latin makes it very easy to understand how European languages work, or should work. But also, it's good puzzle solving. Neurological connections.

[wakka]

I studied Latin at school and found it very interesting and quite enriching. Not everything needs to have an absolutely clear practical application in ‘the real world’. No knowledge is wasted and it all helps to broaden the mind.

[Dogg Thang]

Being painfully and endlessly aware of my own mortality and that I simply won’t get to do everything I want to do in life, I find myself not fully agreeing that no knowledge is wasted in the sense that the time used to learn certain things could possibly be far better spent. While it may not be completely wasted and, yes, broadens the mind, not all knowledge is equal. But that’s very much just a personal view and, again, I should admit one not informed my much actual knowledge of the subject.

[Hirst]

I went to a really lousy secondary school (in the bottom 50 nationwide at that time) and the idea of teaching our lot Latin is just laughable, so many of them were struggling with key skills and most learning went straight over their head. When I was in the last year, about a third of the English class when asked to read aloud would still do it a single word at a time, pausing. Each. Time. Like. This. I'm sure that Latin has some interesting uses, but we've got kids in our secondaries who should still be figuring out what happened with Billy Blue-hat and Rip the dog. A massive overhaul of key skills is required before we really start thinking about this kind of thing I feel.

[Neon Ignition]

Common sense lessons need to be brought in, the lack of it is staggering

[QualityChimp]

I studied Latin at school and it was rubbish.
All I can remember is that Caecilius est mortus and canis est Rex.

I do think life skills are something kids should be taught and also being more community aware.

From what I can tell, the only thing boys are taught now is how to stick your hands down your tracky bottoms and how to do a bicycle wheelie or ride no-handed.

[cutmymilk]

Being painfully and endlessly aware of my own mortality and that I simply won’t get to do everything I want to do in life, I find myself not fully agreeing that no knowledge is wasted in the sense that the time used to learn certain things could possibly be far better spent. While it may not be completely wasted and, yes, broadens the mind, not all knowledge is equal. But that’s very much just a personal view and, again, I should admit one not informed my much actual knowledge of the subject.

Funny thing to say on a forum where we have all spent countless hours amassing knowledge about videogames and scart leads!

[wakka]

Being painfully and endlessly aware of my own mortality and that I simply won’t get to do everything I want to do in life, I find myself not fully agreeing that no knowledge is wasted in the sense that the time used to learn certain things could possibly be far better spent. While it may not be completely wasted and, yes, broadens the mind, not all knowledge is equal. But that’s very much just a personal view and, again, I should admit one not informed my much actual knowledge of the subject.

What is 'better' is always going to be subjective though. Reducing academics to a calculation of what is the most useful possible thing you could learn is a depressing way of approaching it. If that's the case it might as well be double mortgage selection followed by a session on doing your tax return, with an afternoon lesson on changing the oil in your car.

Not that I'm opposed to those sorts of totally practical things being taught in school, at all. In fact we never learned anything like that and would've benefited from it. There probably should be more of it. But other than these purely practical, non-academic chores of life, I don't think there's a clear calculus that can be deployed for how time is 'best spent' learning in school. Few of us really need a good knowledge of the Tudors and Stuarts, or exactly how moles function in chemistry. But it's all mind broadening stuff that, in concert, gives us a more well rounded perspective on the world. I see Latin as a valuable part of that.

Just my 2p, anyway. Although I totally agree with Hirst that the absolute basics of literacy and numeracy are the bit that really does need to be nailed on first of all.

[Dogg Thang]

Yeah I guess if you’re going to see it as valuable, that brings up the question compared with what? And if we’re looking at what schools teach overall, I do think there is a huge amount of practical learning missing so it’s not like all needs are filled so we can spend all that extra time faffing around with other stuff. And then if we’re going to see learning a language as mind-broadening (and I can’t help feeling there are subjects that would achieve that better), I still struggle to see why we’d choose a dead language rather than one of the many actual live languages we have that might also bring a cultural awareness of the here and now. Just for me personally, regardless of whether we’re taking useful or even just mind-broadening, I’d put Latin way, way down on that list.

[MartyG]

Funny thing to say on a forum where we have all spent countless hours amassing knowledge about videogames and scart leads!

This is exceedingly crucial knowledge though - no one likes a composite lead.

[wakka]

Yeah I guess if you’re going to see it as valuable, that brings up the question compared with what? And if we’re looking at what schools teach overall, I do think there is a huge amount of practical learning missing so it’s not like all needs are filled so we can spend all that extra time faffing around with other stuff. And then if we’re going to see learning a language as mind-broadening (and I can’t help feeling there are subjects that would achieve that better), I still struggle to see why we’d choose a dead language rather than one of the many actual live languages we have that might also bring a cultural awareness of the here and now. Just for me personally, regardless of whether we’re taking useful or even just mind-broadening, I’d put Latin way, way down on that list.

I guess my position would be that the classics are so foundational to our modern day society and culture that getting a 'bluffer's guide' to them with secondary school Latin has relevance to all sorts of other subjects. You don't learn Latin as if you're going to speak it - it's more of a blend of a language and history class. The lessons are very different to something like French.

It's a tricky one, though, because I'd never be one to say 'Yep, they've got all the other learning nailed down. It's time to faff around with other stuff.' That's not really what I'm trying to get across.

It's not that I think Latin is the best possible, most mind broadening subject that could ever possibly be learnt, or anything.

Just for me personally, taken in isolation, I think learning Latin was something that I found interesting, and that I still call upon. So upon hearing the news that it's being introduced, my view of that is not a negative one. It's something I benefitted from and that I think other kids could benefit from. Even if there are other gaps in the curriculum that should probably be filled first.

[Dogg Thang]

Well you have actual experience in the subject where I don’t so I have to defer to that. It feels like you understand where I’m coming from and I guess we all agree that there are improvements to be made in education regardless of any specifics around Latin.

[wakka]

Yep I do understand where you're coming from and agree with you that, when considering how secondary education might be improved, adding Latin classes is hardly likely to be the first port of call!

[Neon Ignition]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/02/diesel-car-suits-me-better-than-electric-says-pms-climate-spokesperson

The Prime Minister's Climate Spokesperson Allegra Stratton says she drives a diesel engine car rather than electric because she prefers it for reasons the AA disagrees with

[wakka]

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...e-spokesperson
The Prime Minister's Climate Spokesperson Allegra Stratton says she drives a diesel engine car rather than electric because she prefers it for reasons the AA disagrees with

Jesus christ