United Kingdom VII: Taking Pride in Your Success

[QualityChimp]

By Xmas Hancock will probably be Education Minister or something

Minister of State for Children and Families, probably.

[Hirst]

Cool - just need to get the MPs to pass legislation for that to become law

That's why the system is rotten - the architecture is set by people who have no interest in dismantling it, because it keeps them in a pretty safe job on all sides. Neither main party would want something that makes it so they have to do their job better.

My view is that if an MP is sacked or forced to resign from their front bench job, it should also terminate their position as an MP and force a by-election for their seat at the very least. You shouldn't be able to quit one without the other.

[MartyG]

That's simply not realistic as it would oportune a rogue PM to get rid of any MP in his party he didn't like and you'd have a much harder time of any MP wanting to take the positions. It is not the Prime Minister's job to remove MPs, it's the electorate's job.

I think you need to be very careful about having the abilities to remove a sitting MP, because you've got the set the bar to removal low enough to enable it, which then opens the doors to single issue groups banding together. Imagine if that were possible during the Brexit times, pro-Brexit electorate would have been able to remove all the pro-remain MPs from their positions.

The best way of removing MPs is still at the ballot box.

[QualityChimp]

I do wonder how far you could take it.

You've always had comedy votes like Count Binface and The Monster Raving Loony Party and nobody really expects them to get in, but if they did, would their voters hold them to account if they did and failed to deliver their manifestos?

Likewise, if someone said I'll give £100 to everyone in my constituency if I get in, then just didn't do it as an example of what other politicians do and totally get away with it, what would happen?

They'd probably be told they can't do that, as it's bribery, yet I can't see where the line is between that and promising the Earth in your manifesto and not delivering.

It also feels like you're voting on two different things - who you want to run your local area and who you want to run the country.
You might like your local MP as they do a good job, not just turn up for photo opportunities, but hate the party they represent.

[Dogg Thang]

The best way of removing MPs is still at the ballot box.

You keep saying this and, right now, of course you're right but it is very clear that this is not working. Or that it is working exactly as it should but not to the benefit of the country or people. When something is consistently not working, it needs to be changed.

You might like your local MP as they do a good job, not just turn up for photo opportunities, but hate the party they represent.

We have a local guy who is exactly this. And I've said it to him on my doorstep. He has been fantastic in many ways for the locality, he's a really good guy but, when you look at the party record and his record within it (he will always vote with the party), I just can't support him. His reasoning was that being part of the party has been what has allowed him to do good things on a local level.

[MartyG]

You keep saying this and, right now, of course you're right but it is very clear that this is not working. Or that it is working exactly as it should but not to the benefit of the country or people. When something is consistently not working, it needs to be changed.
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I'd counter that there are plenty of people in the electorate who believe it's working very well for them, otherwise they wouldn't keep voting for Tory MPs in their constituency.

I would very much like a PR electoral system, but as I posted above, I think you need to be VERY careful indeed about introducing systems into the process that allows MPs to be ousted outside of their elected term.

[QualityChimp]

There's definitely a sense of frustration for a lot of us who look on at the present Government and wonder what it'll take for people to vote against them.
"They're doing their best" and "Imagine if the other lot got in" are weak arguments.

PMQs isn't called PMAs for a reason and it's proving a fruitless exercise each week.

Embedded Tweet

Johnson refusing to answer if he fired Hancock like he now claims or if he resigned.

He's also crowing that Hancock was gone on Friday and replaced on Saturday, like that's something to be proud of.

24 hours into his new job, new Health Secretary Sajid Javid says it is his "absolute priority" to lift Covid restrictions "as quickly as possible". "We see no reason to go beyond July 19 because no date we choose comes with zero risk, we simply cannot eliminate it. We have to learn to live with it. We also know people & businesses need certainty. So we want every step to be irreversible"

You'd think the Health Secretary's absolute priority would be the nation's health, but here we are.

In addition to his MP's salary, in the past year Sajid Javid has been paid £300,000+ by investment banks, management consultants and other big businesses such as US bank, JP Morgan, a major player in private healthcare...

[MartyG]

PMQs isn't called PMAs for a reason and it's proving a fruitless exercise each week.
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PMQs has never been about the PM being held to account - it's a show piece for the cameras (from both sides of the house).

You need to venture into the word of the committees (which are broad, wide and go on for days, not just 30 minutes, and scrutinise MPs far better), most of these are covered on BBC Parliament channel.

Also, Javid is a complete banker.

[Dogg Thang]

I'd counter that there are plenty of people in the electorate who believe it's working very well for them

I guess I don't see belief as being enough. We know what people believe and what the reality is are often two very different things and, while so much of what happens is open to interpretation, there are some things that are simply fact (bus lies versus reality, just as one example). I think we need to rely on more than belief.

In fact I'd go a stage further and say that belief should not be the standard used to choose a government and this is exactly why we need more direct accountability.

[MartyG]

Okay, but accountable to whom and who is the arbiter of that accountability? If it's the electorate then you're just running in circles. If it's some other group of people, who appoints them, parliament?

We have a lot of arbiters of various organisations in the UK, like the ASA, FSA, OFCOM and various ombudsman organisations, but they have very little teeth as rarely are they truly independent bodies, whilst many have the power to fine companies, rarely is it incentive to prevent bad behaviour.

And again to bring this up as it's important - if you have a system to remove MPs before their elected term ends, that process of removal is not just open to MPs you don't like - you're never going to have a system that is above being gamed, so it just ends up with a different set of similar issues in a different basket.

Whether you or I might not accept or like people's reason for voting for a certain party or candidate, it is their choice ultimately and currently more people are chosing to like people with a blue rossette, whether they're shagging their employees under CCTVs and handing bags of cash to their friends or not.



[source]

[Dogg Thang]

You're just coming up with reasons not to do anything but, when the status quo is broken, my feeling is you try the other stuff even if it might not work. Otherwise you are supporting, validating and defending the strength of the status quo which, right now, are Tories who care for nothing but their own personal interests. So yes, independent arbiters and give them teeth and see what happens. Yes, try a system that maybe be open to being gamed and see what happens.

And I'm still not entirely against a bloody revolution.

[MartyG]

But I don't think the system of electing/removing MPs is broken - if you don't like the candidate and his behaviour, you get to vote in the next election for a different one - the electorate has the power to make that change (well other than FPTP, but different tangent argument, PR would provide way more LibDems which would make me happy).

It's simply that the majority of people are currently happy with the status quo. If they weren't the chart above wouldn't look like it does.

[Dogg Thang]

Well I think that's everything in a nutshell really and where we fundamentally differ.

[Neon Ignition]

To be fair, it wouldn't be right if we don't also cover the things that the Tory Government is getting right too though:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jun/30/rise-in-women-sleeping-rough-hidden-crisis-england-charities-warn

01 - They're tackling affordable housing demand by reducing the number of people in a position to request it via rising the number of homeless women

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/30/uk-making-trade-deals-with-countries-abusing-human-rights-says-tuc

02 - They're setting up new trade deals - with countries that are abusing human rights

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jun/30/life-expectancy-key-to-success-of-levelling-up-in-uks-poorer-areas-covid-pandemic

03 - They're solving the pensions issues by ensuring we all die off much earlier

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/30/covid-sage-scientist-fears-england-could-repeat-mistakes-of-last-summer

04 - They're refiring the economy - by ignoring their scientific advice saying they're repeating the same mistakes as last summer


On the other side of the fence:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jun/30/uk-politics-live-uk-state-aid-brexit-covid-coronavirus-latest-updates?page=with:block-60dc745c8f0833e43ca1ee47#block-60dc745c8f0833e43ca1ee47

41% of members feel Starmer should step down when Labour loses the Batley and Spen by-election. I say when because Labour has been given just a 5% chance of victory. 69% have played well into Burham's PR and now believe he should helm the party.

[Neon Ignition]

Oh, and our Government is also ensuring that the UK is set to enjoy the very finest third wave in the world:

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

New record of 26,068 new cases today