America & the World V: DOGE Business

[briareos_kerensky]

The situation is dire in the Middle East.
Hamas launched a surprise attack against Israel with missile strikes, paratroopers, and drones. One video shows Hamas fighter in an Israeli military base.
Netanyahu has declared Isreal in now at war, and will strike targets in the Gaza strip once opposing forces have been flushed out from within Isreal's borders.

[Brad]

The overwhelming Israeli support from the West makes me think that Israel will see that as international permission to just level Gaza. The conflict is too old and complex for me too wrap my head around why Israel are seen as the good guys. I wish I understood more.

[briareos_kerensky]

In today's environment, Israel are seen as the good guys because the other side are Muslims, A.K.A. the bad guys after Soviet Russia fell, despite Israel having plenty of blood on their hands.
But as you said this conflict is far too old and nuanced to say who is right and who is wrong, and it will ever be solved in a peaceful way.

[charlesr]

And it's Britain's fault, so we've always wanted to try and fix it somehow.... Fail

[fishbowlhead]

The situation is dire in the Middle East.
Hamas launched a surprise attack against Israel with missile strikes, paratroopers, and drones. One video shows Hamas fighter in an Israeli military base.
Netanyahu has declared Isreal in now at war, and will strike targets in the Gaza strip once opposing forces have been flushed out from within Isreal's borders.

Well that escalated over the weekend, i can't image Israel's response will be anything less than total war against Hamas.

[Protocol Penguin]

In today's environment, Israel are seen as the good guys because the other side are Muslims, A.K.A. the bad guys after Soviet Russia fell, despite Israel having plenty of blood on their hands.

No offence, but that’s a spectacularly bad take on the issue, actually quite offensively so, which shows deep ignorance of the entire history of the situation.

[Protocol Penguin]

Well that escalated over the weekend, i can't image Israel's response will be anything less than total war against Hamas.

Unfortunately, Hamas has probably ended the possibility of there ever being a Palestinian state, which was the best possible solution for a peaceful outcome to the conflict.

[briareos_kerensky]

No offence, but that’s a spectacularly bad take on the issue, actually quite offensively so, which shows deep ignorance of the entire history of the situation.

Can you argue against that (part of) the US have shifted their "enemy" rhetoric from Soviet Russia to Muslims, and it's very convenient to reinforce the notion when the US will always support Israel?
I'm not saying Muslims are the bad guys, full stop; I'm saying that this conflict has been sold like this, and part of the US need to be "at war" with something, to have someone/something to point as the bad guy, and due to their influence this is what the surface of this conundrum looks like.
Am I oversimplifying stuff? For sure, but examining the whole Israeli/Palestinian conflict would need a forum on its own, and even after a cursory examination of the facts, no one will be "the good guy".

[fishbowlhead]

Can you argue against that (part of) the US have shifted their "enemy" rhetoric from Soviet Russia to Muslims, and it's very convenient to reinforce the notion when the US will always support Israel?
I'm not saying Muslims are the bad guys, full stop; I'm saying that this conflict has been sold like this, and part of the US need to be "at war" with something, to have someone/something to point as the bad guy, and due to their influence this is what the surface of this conundrum looks like.
Am I oversimplifying stuff? For sure, but examining the whole Israeli/Palestinian conflict would need a forum on its own, and even after a cursory examination of the facts, no one will be "the good guy".

Don't worry Russia has gone straight back to the top of the mega arsehole list.

[Protocol Penguin]

Can you argue against that (part of) the US have shifted their "enemy" rhetoric from Soviet Russia to Muslims, and it's very convenient to reinforce the notion when the US will always support Israel?

The US is supporting Israel because Israel is a democratic nation state* that’s just had an unprecedented assault carried out on it by a terrorist organisation. Sort of like how the democratic world offered sympathy to the US immediately after 9/11, which was also a nation-state having had a dreadful terrorist assault carried out on it. It’s the international norm to side with states over terrorists.

* yes, a flawed one, and their current government is the most repellant in the state’s history. But to compare situations, Bush being president at the time didn’t make 9/11 any less of a horrifying event.

[Neon Ignition]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/oct/09/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-news-worst-day-israeli-history-idf-fighting-grinds-on-gaza-conflict-supernova?page=with:block-6523b3558f08297bb3424adf#block-6523b3558f08297bb3424adf

Israel has declared all out war on Hamas and reclaimed all captured territory however it says Hamas forces may still be present within conflicted areas

[fishbowlhead]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...08297bb3424adf
Israel has declared all out war on Hamas and reclaimed all captured territory however it says Hamas forces may still be present within conflicted areas

And there it is.

[briareos_kerensky]

The US is supporting Israel because Israel is a democratic nation state* that’s just had an unprecedented assault carried out on it by a terrorist organisation.

I was referring to the US supporting Israel ever since the '60s, not just this particular attack.

[Mayhem]

I was referring to the US supporting Israel ever since the '60s, not just this particular attack.

It's like the Second Amendment and guns, or not being Christian. There's too many Jewish people in the US to not profess the "support israel" stance otherwise you'll never get elected (there's almost as many Jewish people living there as in Israel itself). Blunt but pretty truthful. And before you say "but there's plenty of Muslims in the US", yes there are, but from a multitude of different countries, many of which have nothing to do with the Middle East. Everyone centres around Israel regarding Jews, even though as we know, Jewish people aren't confined to Israel.

[Protocol Penguin]

It's like the Second Amendment and guns, or not being Christian. There's too many Jewish people in the US to not profess the "support israel" stance otherwise you'll never get elected (there's almost as many Jewish people living there as in Israel itself). Blunt but pretty truthful. And before you say "but there's plenty of Muslims in the US", yes there are, but from a multitude of different countries, many of which have nothing to do with the Middle East. Everyone centres around Israel regarding Jews, even though as we know, Jewish people aren't confined to Israel.

Well, that’s because there’s only one Jewish nation state. And Jewish people throughout the world have relatives in Israel, which was a state after all founded by stateless Holocaust survivors.