BPX078: Brexit - A Decade On

[wakka]

I don't know enough on this but... if Brexit is so bad and everybody is up in arms then why aren't Labour and perhaps the Lib Dems or others promising to re-vote and get us back in. Perhaps there has to be so many years to wait, but surely they could use this as a selling point. You would think Starmer for all his savvy would know an arse has been made and for the good of the country promise to get us back asap.

Because as Nu Eclipse said, the Brexit debate is politically radioactive. We're only just barely recovering from the post-Cameron Tory policy of eagerly branding everyone who isn't a full throated Leave-lover an anti-British 'remoaner', which represented a culturally unhealthy push towards nationalism, tore the country in two politically, and paralysed debate about pretty much anything else.

As much as I would 1000% support Britain's re-entry to the EU, the timing for attempting to open the door to that is absolutely not now. The wounds are still too raw and the issue too emotional. I think even for many of those who voted Leave and now might think it was a mistake, they would still double down if the debate was reignited and the full force of the British media (which is 90% right wing) was brought to bear to stop re-entry.

[Asura]

The EU were a convient scape goat. Successive governments pinned all kinds of stuff on them to either pass blame or use as a way to force through policy. It's backfired because they then asked the people 'Do you hate the EU?' And everyone said yes. They've lost their scape goat. Now they are trying to whip up hate for trans to replace it with.

Just watch. It's obese people next. I've already seen a few articles which feel like the first steps.

[Neon Ignition]

Yep, and like all their post-immigrant attempts at scapegoating it'll back fire too. The trouble is, with immigration they could point their fingers at an entire group of people but none of those people they were scapegoating were voters. Most other targets fall within too broad a group of potential voters and attacking based on weight is another death sentence waiting to happen because its either directly or indirectly relatable to everyone, easily spun back on them for victimising or guns for their core. I assume this is why they still bang on so loudly about immigration when their track record is so appalling that really it's the last thing they should be bringing attention to.

[Neon Ignition]

2015 - The Conservatives Win the General Election Committing to an Advisory Referendum on EU Membership
Given the Tories had just won a General Election giving them power for years ahead and were also standing on a pro-EU membership platform, was the commitment to carry out the outcome of an advisory vote their biggest mistake?

[QualityChimp]

This all feels too soon, Neon.
It's still painful to have it recapped.

"Advisory"

[Lebowski]

This all feels too soon, Neon.
It's still painful to have it recapped.

"Advisory"

Advisory stings the most, The illegal over spending on vote leave campaign with Cambridge analytical at the center of it, The Proven Russian interference we refused to investigate that was later exposed, Jhonson and his lying bus Mc Bus face stunt rubs salt in the wounds even more. Ironically that 350 million a week for the NHS could come in super handy at the moment in sorting out the wage issues around the current strikes.

[MartyG]

was the commitment to carry out the outcome of an advisory vote their biggest mistake?[/COLOR][/SIZE]

No, once the vote results were confirmed they had no choice but to act on it. Had they not, UKIP would have been rubbing their hands in glee in time for the next election.

The biggest mistake was caving into the ERG and having a referendum in the first place.

[Asura]

The fact someone obviously paid a lot of money for a professional job to decorate that bus, but when it was found to be a lie, seemingly no-one could remember who actually commissioned the work... That was an advance preview of British Politics for the next 5 years, and seemingly continuing further into the future based on the present situation.

Seeing the occasional MP say "oh I'm tired of talk about buses" just makes me want to punch them in the face. I bet prisoners are tired of talking about why they broke the law too, but they don't just get to leave prison because they're bored!

In terms of the government, we're at a point best illustrated by analogy - that corporal punishment was withdrawn years ago, but the kids still remembered it and were careful about testing the boundaries. Now they've fully realised the adults can and will do nothing when they misbehave, so they may as well go for it. The MPs are the kids in thie analogy.

[Lebowski]

In terms of the government, we're at a point best illustrated by analogy - that corporal punishment was withdrawn years ago, but the kids still remembered it and were careful about testing the boundaries. Now they've fully realised the adults can and will do nothing when they misbehave, so they may as well go for it. The MPs are the kids in thie analogy.

Nothing illustrates this better than Jacob Rhys Mogg being made Brexit opportunity Minister, the conflict of interest here is astounding to me, he certainly has done well out of Brexit making an estimated 7 million by betting against the pound from one investment alone, god only knows what hes made off the things we don't know about.

[Neon Ignition]

2016 - The Referendum Takes Place Asking 'Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?'
The question had to be asked at this point but was the phrasing of the question done so correctly?

[Asura]

Honestly, it had to be this.

The only alternative would've been a 3-4 question referendum.

The question did have a problem in that people approached it in different ways. Some people approached it purely as an ideological thing, whether they wanted the UK to be part of the union for those ideological reasons, entirely divorced from the practicalities and economics. Then you have those people on the opposite end of the scale, who were just about pragmatics, who voted purely on what they thought would happen with the economy, etc.

This is one of the reasons for the disconnect and how it's divided the public.

There were certainly some leavers who voted because they genuinely believed it would improve the UK's trading abilities with non-EU countries, and they wanted to reduce immigration - both of which, right are wrong, are still pragmatic stances. There were some remainers who are federalists who voted for the EU because they believe in the EU as a project.

Despite that...

I think the majority of leavers voted because of ideology, with those nebulous things like "taking back sovereignty". There were those who said "take back our borders" but while they might think that was pragmatic, it was really ideological, because a lot of that was couched in xenophobia.

I think the majority of remainers voted because of pragmatics. Many of the people I've spoken to even disliked the EU, and had great reservations about their vote; but they voted remain because they believed, when you weigh it up, that we were better off in than out.

These two groups can't really see eye-to-eye.

[MartyG]

The question had a problem in that you were getting a country to vote on a massively complex economics issue with very little understanding of those economics.

[Protocol Penguin]

Tory voters voted for Brexit as they regarded having foreigners from EU nations living here as a threat to British culture and national identity.

Labour voters voted for Brexit as they regarded having foreigners from EU nations living here as a threat to native British workers (“taking our jobs”, etc).

That’s all there is to it. It was all based on xenophobia, just dressed up with different ideological justifications.

[charlesr]

Head of nail hit there [MENTION=42]MartyG[/MENTION]

[Nu-Eclipse]

Labour voters voted for Brexit as they regarded having foreigners from EU nations living here as a threat to native British workers (“taking our jobs”, etc).

And Corbyn was pro-Leave despite the vast majority of the Labour Party all but begging him to campaign for/commit to Remain.