UK XI: Please Sir... May I Have Some More?

[Protocol Penguin]

Really and truly, the rules for triggering MP by-elections should also include political party defections.

I don’t agree. We have a constituency-based electoral system rather than party list based system. If we had the latter, yes. But we don’t, and I don’t think you can bend the old system we have in a way that it’s not meant to.

Wouldn’t worry though, Anderson’s toast come the next general election. Possibly even if he somehow worms himself back into the Tory ranks.

(FWIW, I support switching from FPTP to a STV system, but could live with German-style MMP. Anything but the system we have now would be an improvement.)

[Nu-Eclipse]

I don’t agree. We have a constituency-based electoral system rather than party list based system. If we had the latter, yes. But we don’t, and I don’t think you can bend the old system we have in a way that it’s not meant to.

I don't agree that it's bending the old system.

I'm sorry but it's not right that an MP can still keep his/her seat while defecting to another party. It just isn't right. That's not what constituents voted for in the first place and the party is still on the ticket no matter how you look at it.

Let the constituents decide if they still want an MP who defects to another party that wasn't voted in with an immediate automatic by-election. It is only fair that way.

[Asura]

Gotta say, I agree with Nu-Eclipse on this one.

Saying "ah, well, you vote for an MP, not a party" is like that bull**** people say when the PM changes, "ah, well, you vote for a MP and party, not a PM".

I venture that's exactly the same as saying "ah, well, technically the King is the head of state", in that yes, it's technically correct on paper, but it isn't correct in practice and it's disingenuous to believe otherwise.

When people go to the ballot for national elections, they are voting for an MP, a Party and Prime Minister. I don't care what "ah, well-" technically says. That's what they're voting for, and if any of those change, it should trigger a by-election.

I can ask 100 people in the street that, and I am willing to assert approximately 99 people will confirm it, apart from one guy who starts with "ah, well-" and he can forget it.

[Protocol Penguin]

I don't agree that it's bending the old system.

I'm sorry but it's not right that an MP can still keep his/her seat while defecting to another party. It just isn't right. That's not what constituents voted for in the first place and the party is still on the ticket no matter how you look at it.

We vote in Westminster elections by individual named candidates, not by party lists. Therefore it’s incompatible with our current electoral system. You can’t graft elements of one electoral system onto another completely different one and expect it to work.

I say that as someone who despises that thuggish Anderson and the tawdry far-right party he’s just hooked up with. And who wants electoral reform.

[Protocol Penguin]

Gotta say, I agree with Nu-Eclipse on this one.

Saying "ah, well, you vote for an MP, not a party" is like that bull**** people say when the PM changes, "ah, well, you vote for a MP and party, not a PM".

I venture that's exactly the same as saying "ah, well, technically the King is the head of state", in that yes, it's technically correct on paper, but it isn't correct in practice and it's disingenuous to believe otherwise.

We vote by candidate, not party lists. We have a parliamentary democracy, not a presidential one. The monarch is head of state – head of state and head of government are completely different things, and only overlap in a few countries (France, America…).

I’m not defending the current system, I’m describing how factually it is. We don’t have a party list electoral system or a presidential republic. That’s it. You can tell me that black is white and white is black until you’re blue in the face, but that doesn’t make it true.

[Nu-Eclipse]

We vote in Westminster elections by individual named candidates, not by party lists. Therefore it’s incompatible with our current electoral system. You can’t graft elements of one electoral system onto another completely different one and expect it to work.

I say that as someone who despises that thuggish Anderson and the tawdry far-right party he’s just hooked up with. And who wants electoral reform.

Doesn't change the fact that those individuals are still in parliament representing political parties.

Funnily enough, those individual candidates have the right to call a by-election pretty much anytime they want. Surprise, surprise, Anderson won't call one. So again, I don't buy the incompatibility argument. It's flimsy at best and self-serving at worst.

I stand by what I've said.

[Lebowski]

So the current system is broken then, It's a pretty poor that the person you vote in can suddenly change political allegiance, in this case moving from the right to the far Right. I don't buy that you vote for an individual an MP has to vote with his party and follow the party manifesto, and if they don't their called "Party rebels", their hardly ever working for their constituency and just toeing the party line.

[Nu-Eclipse]

Largest Tory Party donor able to openly make racist and misogynistic remarks about Diane Abbott and black women in general.

Tory Party unsurprisingly rushing to make excuses for him.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/mar/11/biggest-tory-donor-looking-diane-abbott-hate-all-black-women

[Neon Ignition]

I wonder if anyone in the Tories can remember when the party used to know it didn't need to pay any attention to the BNP/UKIP/Reform?

[Nu-Eclipse]

I wonder if anyone in the Tories can remember when the party used to know it didn't need to pay any attention to the BNP/UKIP/Reform?

That used to be then, but it definitely isn't that now. Brexit ensured that.

Labour and the Lib-Dems are affected as well, the former even more so as they'll almost certainly be winning the next GE barring a political/electoral miracle/disaster (delete as applicable). Any more continued failure to improve working people's lives after the last fourteen years (whatever happened to Levelling Up and Building Back Better??) will almost certainly help the far-right shape the narrative even more.

[Neon Ignition]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2024/mar/14/frank-hester-michael-gove-diane-abbott-rishi-sunak-conservative-donor-uk-politics-live?page=with:block-65f2bf6c8f08fe8721ddf547#block-65f2bf6c8f08fe8721ddf547

Labour says todays new definition of extremism rasies more questions and concerns than it does answers:

"All it really does is prevent the government from financing organisations or individuals. That rather implies that Michael Gove is worried they’re doing that at the moment, which raises more questions than he’s been able to answer this morning."

[QualityChimp]

Genuinely wouldn't be shocked if they found Gove dead in some club toilets wearing stockings and a pig mask.

[Neon Ignition]

Man driving ‘runaway’ electric Jaguar arrested on suspicion of dangerous driving after... - LBC
Sounds like the police operation was a runaway success

[Mayhem]

Genuinely wouldn't be shocked if they found Gove dead in some club toilets wearing stockings and a pig mask.

Pig mask you say?

The_National_Anthem_-_Black_Mirror.jpg

[QualityChimp]

Pig mask you say?

Heh, I literally changed it from "mask" to "pig mask", thinking of Black Mirror and Cameron!