The War in Gaza

[Neon Ignition]

Fairly raised, this should be running in its own thread by now so discussion will switch from the global news thread to this one as events continue.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/nov/08/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-biden-netanyahu-gaza-occupation-palestine?page=with:block-654b71a68f08015ffd30ce76#block-654b71a68f08015ffd30ce76

Unverified figures from Hamas' Health Ministry in Gaza have updated figures to say 10,569 have died to date with 4,324 being children

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/nov/08/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-biden-netanyahu-gaza-occupation-palestine?page=with:block-654b62da8f086c9905b713f9#block-654b62da8f086c9905b713f9

Israel have ruled out Humanitarian Pauses as well as Ceasefires as long as Hamas refuses to return hostages

[dataDave]

Imagine if Israel didn't invest in that Iron Dome. The response and subsequent death toll would have been 100X by now.

I'm no fan of Israel (The Oct 7th defense 'failing' is very suss), but Hamas are a brutal bunch of bastards who need dropping into the sea. There's no way in which the nature of that attack should go unpunished. If they want to hide under civilian infrastructure and within aid corridors then that's on them, surely?

[MartyG]

I'm not sure killing civilians who have nothing to do with Hamas is in any way going to help with the security of Israel - what Hamas did was bad, no doubt. What Israel is currently doing isn't better.

[fishbowlhead]

I'm not sure killing civilians who have nothing to do with Hamas is in any way going to help with the security of Israel - what Hamas did was bad, no doubt. What Israel is currently doing isn't better.

It’s not better no, but Hamas poked a bear with a hammer and and tank, and missiles, and now doesn’t like the consequences. They’re also using the Gaza civilians as meat shields, so that’s on them as well.

[Brad]

It's a complex situation for sure but there is an argument that Hamas didn't start it.

[dataDave]

It's a huge mess. Bombing Palestine is only going to perpetuate further evil-doing in future unless you reprogram the general populace precisely like how it was done with post-war Germany.

I think they know exactly how they could oust Hamas, and many other terrorist networks effectively, but those methods aren't good for business.

[Neon Ignition]

The big issue with the conflict at the moment is that politically it's a situation with an immense amount of nuance but leaders and politicians literally just want to simplify it to its most basic level for cheap point scoring.

For the most part you have a small contingent who are supportive of attacks on Israel because of past events and the connection that draws with being pro-Hamas means any discussion on that front gets shut down almost immediately. Then there's the side that is pro-Israel attacks on Gaza due to 07 Oct. You're close to free to support that stance but it has to be borderline all in, without questioning of how it's conducted. Or the current and loudest other camp, pro-Ceasefire. A singular aim where the strategy is focused on an option that it literally not going happen but the confrontational nature of the three camps of thought arguing with each other drowns out any discussion over options that might improve the situation.

At the rate things are going it will drag on through inaction long enough that public support will tire, media interest will drift onto something else and events will go on longer than necessary unchecked. It'll become normalised. If I'm being honest, it's hard to imagine the current level of public protest surviving the Xmas/New Year period. The pressure needs to be on Israel to complete its objectives with efficiency, precision, accountability and civilian protections as the primary focus which means bombing left, right and centre needs to stop first - but not a ceasefire, we'll just end up somewhere worse then when 07 Oct is repeated because what keeps getting brushed aside is that Hamas will not stop.

[dataDave]

If this was an RTS (and I really wish it was) I’d send Israel and the US on a joint initiative to eliminate absolutely all of Iran’s military assets as fast as possible while keeping civilian deaths to a minimum. It’d have to be absolutely surgical. Hamas and all of the other militant groups are absolutely nothing without their backers. Cut the head off the the snake while there’s still chance, before the **** really hits the fan in a seriously big way. Who knows what Russia and Iran have been negotiating this past couple of months.

[Hirst]

Something I've done for the past few years when a war breaks out is to look at the areas on Google Maps and see all the banal reviews of cafes, funfairs or whatever. It reminds you that amongst all this rubbish, there's ordinary people just trying to live their lives. You could find the deepest, darkest, scariest place and it will just be photos of a birthday party, some guy giving a thumbs up in front of their repaired car, someone leaving an enormous ranting review because they had a meal in a cafe and it wasn't great. When the Afghanistan withdrawal happened, I was looking at the chaotic scenes at Kabul's main airport on the news - death and mayhem everywhere. The photo reviews a few days ago were people smiling because they were off on holiday, teddy bears for sale in the gift shop, etc.

In Gaza, I found a few gaming cafes where they had PS4s all lined up - they really like playing PES football games there by the look of it. It's just depressing to think of the fate of these people who like to get together and have a round on the virtual footie, caught between two warring governments who clearly each see civilians and their homes as accepted collateral damage.

[Asura]

In Gaza, I found a few gaming cafes where they had PS4s all lined up - they really like playing PES football games there by the look of it. It's just depressing to think of the fate of these people who like to get together and have a round on the virtual footie, caught between two warring governments who clearly each see civilians and their homes as accepted collateral damage.

There's a fantastic video about the fighting game community in Pakistan I should dig out for you.

[Neon Ignition]

Organiser of Armistice Day Cenotaph event backs pro-Palestine march | London | The Guardian

as

Suella Braverman accuses police of double standards on rallies | Suella Braverman | The Guardian

whilst

Sunak accused of ‘silly posturing’ by ex-Tory minister after climbdown over pro-Palestine rally | Conservatives | The Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/nov/09/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-who-disease-gaza-us-strikes-iran-site-syria?page=with:block-654c773c8f0898cc3cb04030#block-654c773c8f0898cc3cb04030

Tentative talks have begun between Israel and Hamas, led by Egypt and the US, about holding a three day humanitarian ceasefire in return for approximately a dozen of the hostages taken on 07 October.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/nov/09/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-who-disease-gaza-us-strikes-iran-site-syria?page=with:block-654c98c48f0898cc3cb040f4#block-654c98c48f0898cc3cb040f4

And this will sum up why calling on just Israel to ceasefire is flawed, whilst most are being intercepted sirens are currently sounding in Ashdod in the latest round of Palistian militant rocket firing aimed specifically at Israel civilian areas

[Neon Ignition]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-agrees-to-4-hour-daily-pauses-in-gaza-fighting-to-allow-civilians-to-flee-white-house-says/ar-AA1jF9iA?ocid=msedgntp&pc=NMTS&cvid=3837ca05bf154763bb926170293cf238&ei=8

4 hour humanitarian pauses for the win

[Protocol Penguin]

I've no idea how to solve this mess.


Two-state solution: Possibly functionally dead for the foreseeable, perhaps ever. The Israeli Left are a shadow of their former dominance and barely repressed in the Knesset. The Israeli Right won’t allow it, and will use the 7th October attacks as a reason to oppose it. The PA most likely won’t agree to whatever’s offered. Gaza might be totally rubble by the end of the current war. The Palestinian likely citizenry won't accept it.


Three-state solution: Even more implausible. Egypt and Jordan don’t want to absorb the Gaza and West Bank respectively, and Israel historically doesn't like the idea of having two potentially hostile states deep in their territory.

Current one-state solution: The status quo, and is utterly untenable.


Alternative one-state solution: The solution proposed by the radical left in the west and some Palestinians, where Medinat Y'Israel is dissolved into a secular dual-national or confederal state called Palestine. Not possible as the people of Israel would understandably never agree to dissolve their state, and arguably to function it would need constant intervention from UN peacekeepers. Like Bosnia and Herzegovina, it would only ever be a fragile state with fragile peace.

[dataDave]

caught between two warring governments who clearly each see civilians and their homes as accepted collateral damage.

This is exactly it. All the leaders involved in this, on both sides and beyond, are massive pieces of ****.

[dataDave]

[FONT="]I've no idea how to solve this mess.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Two-state solution: Possibly functionally dead for the foreseeable, perhaps ever. The Israeli Left are a shadow of their former dominance and barely repressed in the Knesset. The Israeli Right won’t allow it, and will use the 7th October attacks as a reason to oppose it. The PA most likely won’t agree to whatever’s offered. Gaza might be totally rubble by the end of the current war. The Palestinian likely citizenry won't accept it.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Three-state solution: Even more implausible. Egypt and Jordan don’t want to absorb the Gaza and West Bank respectively, and Israel historically doesn't like the idea of having two potentially hostile states deep in their territory.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
Current one-state solution: The status quo, and is utterly untenable.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
Alternative one-state solution: The solution proposed by the radical left in the west and some Palestinians, where Medinat Y'Israel is dissolved into a secular dual-national or confederal state called Palestine. Not possible as the people of Israel would understandably never agree to dissolve their state, and arguably to function it would need constant intervention from UN peacekeepers. Like Bosnia and Herzegovina, it would only ever be a fragile state with fragile peace.

Hamas releases all of the hostages, renounces its charter calling for the destruction of Israel, and publicly commits to a two state solution. The bombardment would stop immediately and Hamas would save its people from inevitable destruction.