Champions League 2010/11

[merf]

Arsenal are like a pub tribute band version of the real thing.

That said we did manage to beat them this year but it was a touch spawny

[EJG1980]

Was gonna reply to Rmoxon too, but I think I'll take the easy route and go with: what they all just said

[saturn-gamer]

To say the final was down to Man U's weakness is delusional and a great insult to the endeavour of the Barcelona team last night.

As merf pointed out the problem United's defence had last night was the fact they could never be sure who to pick up and who to close down. Basically Messi's ability and reputation puts defenders on edge for good reason, he ghosted past so many players during the final it proves why players are always wary of him.

United were completely undone by a team who are miles ahead of everyone at the moment. The only way to defeat them at the moment, as proven by Mourinho, is to be horrifically negative. He did it with Chelsea, Inter and Madrid. To surpass the ability of Barca would take a long time and something very special.

Comparisons with Arsenal are also misguided, the gulf between the quality of the teams play is massive.

I do think Arsenal is the third team right now though. They did give Barcelona a hard time. Its because Arsenal has loads of creativity, agility and individual skills. It won't win them the very physical Premier league but they do have chances against a Barcelona who aren't giants and not an air force at that too.

But its true that there is one way to beat Barcelona, and that is by playing purely counter football and provoke them to hell. Real Madrid, with Ronaldo, Ozil, Kaka and all those other stars, even they get killed if they try to play proper football against Barcelona. SAF isn't stupid, he didn't drag his club down to a level like that. His team actually tried to play and make the best out of it, I do have respect for the way United played during this match, they didn't gang up around their own goal and didn't provoke at all. United will be remembered in a better way than the thugs of Madrid.

This Barcelona is likely the best footballing side since Ajax of the 70's. They dominate with the same invincibility surrounding them.

[rmoxon]

Watch that first goal again moxon, it was great play, both messi and pedro drive into the box at clever angles from deeper and the space comes when both vidic and evra are drawn like moths to messi, leaving the gap to slide rule pass in pedro who slotted brilliantly.

Fergie seemed to take it well when shaking hands with pep after the match, he knew what he'd just seen and his team didn't simply fail to perform, they just weren't good enough, these serial winners to seem to take losing badly, especially when you can't blame the ref or anybody else. I know you have to have something special in your makeup to be fergie in the first place but you'd think he'd learn to temper the bitterness by now.

Edit

Just read his interview on the BBC website and that is far more measured and what he should be saying after that game, no blinkers on it that one.

Ive seen the goal plenty of times thanks.

Messi was running stright down the middle (as he did for the entire match) and evra decided to go over to him becuase he didnt trust the central defenders to deal with him alone (which is what happened all the the game really) and so Pedro ended up in loads of space. Yes Pedros run was good and well timed but he should have never been allowed a clear shot in the first place, Evra should have been there.

Likewise if you look at the second goal, Evra tracks Messi, this meant that vidic (who was in a much better position to try and get the ball) decided to not close Messi down and Messi got a shot off. I can only assume that Evra had been told to track Messi the entire match becuase he was the fastest player on the pitch, but it didnt work out well at all.

I'm not saying bacelona arent a good team, we all know they are, my point was simply that all the praise is being lumped on them and there has been no mention of Uniteds defensive decifencies, its all well and good jumping on the barcelona badwaggon but for me the game was still lost with sloppy defending.

[Sam The Man]

there has been no mention of Uniteds defensive decifencies. For me the game was still lost with sloppy defending.

Your forgetting UTD had the best defensive record in the CL up until the final which should tell you it was down to Barcelona confusing us and out smarting our DF with there movement, runs and relentless pressing. I'm not saying we were perfect or anywhere near in fact perhaps you could point the finger at VDS for 1 or 2 of the goals but the truth is Barcelona could of scored at least a few more.

As a UTD fan its hard to swallow and it hurts a bit to say this but i think the semi final match between Barca and Madrid should of been the final as they (Madrid) have been the closest to finding the answer to Barca and with the ref that contested the final may of actually had a chance of winning.

[rmoxon]

Your forgetting UTD had the best defensive record in the CL up until the final which should tell you it was down to Barcelona confusing us and out smarting our DF with there movement, runs and relentless pressing. I'm not saying we were perfect or anywhere near in fact perhaps you could point the finger at VDS for 1 or 2 of the goals but the truth is Barcelona could of scored at least a few more.

As a UTD fan its hard to swallow and it hurts a bit to say this but i think the semi final match between Barca and Madrid should of been the final as they (Madrid) have been the closest to finding the answer to Barca and with the ref that contested the final may of actually had a chance of winning.

You can have the best defense in the world ever, but if they dont turn up then they dont turn up. To be fair though Utd didnt defend too poorly for most part, I just think they should have done alot better with the goals.

Thats Not to say that Barca wouldnt have won it anyway, but I just think United shot themselfs in the foot. The idea was obviously to focus on messi and stop him (which they did relativley well for most part, besides his goal), but they seemed to forget there were other people playing for Barcelona and they left gaps.

Its telling that although Barcelona do usualy play through the middle and they dont like to pass it out wide, the first goal came from someone who had made a run towards the right flank. United left a gap probabaly becuase they didnt think anyone would be there.

[baad bwoy]

I think too much was expected of Man U last night. Even though they have won a quite poor premier league this season, the first decent team they have faced in the Champions League were Barca, and they weren't ready for them. Think MU had fairly easy ride through to the final, only other team of note they faced were Chelsea, and they have been very poor this season.

[nakamura]

I hate to say it but moxon does raise some fair points, Evra was out of position all night which gave Barcelona so much space on the right. That said I still don't think it would have made a great deal of difference because Barca do one thing that no other team does, they never rush.

When watching them in possession they simply move the ball around and let it do all of the work. They rarely sprint and are always on tip toes, ready to recieve the ball. They mix up the speed of the game just a few steps at a time, recieve the ball, 2 fast steps one way and pass. Then chasing player needs to sprint 3 paces to keep up and then track the path of the ball. In doing this it allows Barcelona to tire the defending side with very little loss of stamina and eventually they will wear them down.
Also they are happy to pass the ball several times between the same 2 players, something you never see other teams do. Barcelona are not looking to score everytime they get the ball, just not to concede possession, their corner kics show this.

When you sum up Barcelona, it is easy to be impressed, and rightly so. However, they are playing football in its most simplist form by making the ball do all of the work. They never try anything fancy, never try long passes or a million fancy flicks. It is all about the short pass. Very clever really.

[saturn-gamer]

As the Number 14 once described his total football:

"Simple football is the most beautiful. But playing simple football is the hardest thing.'

And its true. Its hard to blindly find eachother like that so that an easy pass will suffice. Training of it already starts at Barca's cantera. If every team puts faith in their own academy and let them practice together for years to come, we'll probably get better football overall.

The best footballing sides were the likes of Milan '90, Ajax '95, United '99 and now Barcelona (Real Madrid '01 was an exception on this rule, but not that consistent). Those teams have something in common and that is that the majority of the squad were players from their own youth academy.

[prinnysquad]

There is a decent article in the latest issue of The Football Supporter. It looks at the role of climate in shaping the way various countries play football, and the way it shapes style and emphasis. It's so simplistic a theory, and common knowledge really, yet it's useful to digest once in a while. It kind of covers what nakamura referred to.

It states that in the hotter countries, the style of football is shaped around preserving energy. Keeping possession through minimal effort, then using short bursts of energy to create space and chances. Any other way, and they would struggle to make it through 90 minutes. The player's size and build don't really matter, as the workhorse/powerhouse aspects aren't always needed. Touch and technique take precedence.

In contrast, in cooler countries there's more emphasis on pace and power. Thanks to the climate, players can run a huge distance for a full game. There's a role for speedy, and powerful players. The more frantic, physical nature of the game, means that there's a stereotype that smaller players won't cut it, and technical skills are often sacrificed for the ability to run and challenge for 90 minutes. Furthermore, the state of the pitches explains the traditional British obsession with wingers. In the past, when winter pitches became quagmires, playing the ball to men on the lusher, greener wings was a vital tactic in approach play. This led to a need for a ball winner in the box - taller, stronger players who would win headers.

[Matt]

Informative post. I'd never considered the cause nor the effect. Thanks

[rmoxon]

That does explain why foriegn players like to lay on the floor like they are dead after a tackle, its not actualy play acting at all, they are just conserving energy.

That is actualy an intresting theory about the climate of countries and how it effects the game, I guess its obvious when you think about it, it does have to effect things in some way. Not sure I buy that its the reason why Barcelona are the "best team in the world" though.

[Flabio]

I did read once that part of the reason Brazillian players have such good one touch control is that you can't really dribble the ball when playing beach soccer, and that's where a lot of the kids start out.

[merf]

its no surprise that football style is a product of environment, wonder why we have such a desire for energetic tryers with 'good engines' - its the product of a school system and FA policy to stick kids on full size pitches from 10-11, you get the naturally bigger boys being the only ones who can play on them and there is a massive skew towards players who's birthdays are in the first half of the school year.

can't recall the exact figure but british pro players are mainly born Aug-Jan of the school year they were in as the smaller one's fall by the wayside at a young age unable to compete.

there is a strong argument to split the school & youth sides into 2 for each year to balance it out until they are 16 or so and nature balances out a bit.

[NW2013]

It's being repeated on ITV4 at the moment if anyone wants to see it again.