Game Length: A rant about PLAYING games

[John Beaulieu]

*yawn*

[Alf-Life]

I agree with the initial post, although the tutorial thing didn't bother me really - although maybe as I've not played Burnout 1 or 2 and didn't read the manual I didn't notice so much. The unlocking a car and even pressing A multiple times to get to a race or to start a crash junction event thing did get annoying (as well as after a crash event it defaults to 'continue' instead of 'retry' so that can get annoying).

As for story in games, I agree on the most part, but I really do think premise is more important than the actual story. Eg. the premise of Halo 2 or Half-Life 2; Earth invaded by aliens rather than what MC or Gordon go through.

Agree on the arcade/menu/loading aspect too, maybe I've been spoilt because of the N64's carts and games like GoldenEye or Mario 64, but surely they could condense a lot of games down to a few menus (look at Halo's opening menu, ffs, that's great - it'd have been even shorter without the 'demos' bit) and then if they are RPGs or strategy games, hide away micro-management into their own menus that can be auto'ed/ignored (eg. in a way... like PES, a lot of people I know never bother with their players or formation).

[cavalcade]

One point mentioning about Burnout 3 is that quite often people accused Burnout 1 and 2 of interrupting the action with a few replays when you crashed, rather than throwing you straight back in the action. I actually liked this - it built tension - the awareness that a crash could destroy your racing "zone" made the tension even higher. I think an aspect of this, whether intentional or not, has been carried into the Crash Mode in Burnout 3. I *like* the break. An instant restart would devalue, to an extent, each crash as an event. It adds tension. It's like taking a deep breath before moving on. I'm sure many would disagree, but for me it's never been an issue.

I strongly agree that wherever possible a tutorial should be built into the game. A recent example of this working well was Chronicles of Riddick, coincidentally a game that also realises 10 hours of intense gameplay is worth 30 hours of repetitive guff. But in Burnout's case, I can't see how this would be possible - and again - for me it was like sitting in a cinema watching the trailers for a blockbuster move ... a 10/10 review in games, rave reviews across the net, retail staff imploring me to buy it... and I'm there. I'm ready. But I have to wait a little longer.... It's gaming foreplay!

[Leon Retro]

quite possibly the strangest rant yet ... 'games' with story-lines shouldn't be called games?

surreal

John, why the hell didn't you bother to read my post properly.

If you had of read my post, I was making these points:

Videogames that are primarily a story with minimal interaction should not be classified as games.

If I read a book that tells me to clap my hands at the end of every paragraph, does that make the book a game?

In my opinion, titles like FinalFantasy are not games. Of course they are worth while experiences and people enjoy them; that is not the point though, the thing I get annoyed about is when people call them games.

There are lots of titles that I would classify as ' non games '. Most RPG's are in fact stories first and foremost, with the only demand on the player being the amount of time it takes to get from the opening scene to the final scene, much the same with a movie.

Surely people know what the term ' game ' means. Books aren't games, movies aren't games, sewing isn't a game, a game is:

'A competitive activity or sport in which players contend with each other according to a set of rules: the game of basketball; the game of gin rummy.'

' An active interest or pursuit, especially one involving competitive engagement or adherence to rules '

[John Beaulieu]

Game

an amusement or pastime; "they played word games"; "he thought of his painting as a game that filled his empty time"; "his life was all fun and games"

Games do not have to be competitive and they can be story-driven.

There have been books which have been 'games' - letting the reader choose the outcome (turn to page XX if you want to do this or page YY if you want to do that ... iirc Vampire the Masquerade started out as one of these)

[anephric]

Videogames that are primarily a story with minimal interaction should not be classified as games.

I think you're just getting your knickers in a twist about games that try too hard to ape films.

Personally I don't like them much either (I'll never play through another MGS game in my life, for example, because of the ridiculous yearning of Kojima to be a movie director - if he was, people would abandon the cinema in fookin' droves...) but they're still games. They have ludic qualities.

[weightgain]

Amen rjpageuk

[Resonance]

I think that the plot and story can be important to some games. I like to unwind and let the story unfold before me, setting the scene for me before I set off into the world that the game maker has created. I was not really like this before but I am learning to be patient and make an effort to enjoy the game instead of rushing in head long looking for some ass to kick! Some games do have pointless stories but some are stories primalrily with a strong game element.

I REALLY agree about pointless filler in games making you trapse forwards and back doing stuff again and again. I think that Sonic adventure were awful for this. I hated the challenge where you were knuckles and had to find all of the emerald fragments within one miniute. Absolutley pointless and very frustrating. Infact apart from sonic most of that game was filler.

I think withing limits filler can be okay but when the filler to actual game ratio is OTT and the filler is ridiculously frustrating it will ruin a game.

[Leon Retro]

I don't give a damn that some people have strange ideas when it comes to what constitutes a game.
Rational people know what the term ' game ' refers to, and lets be honest, there are a lot of releases that can't justifiably be referred to as games, even if the creators, publishers and magazines make out that they are.

[Ady]

This thread seems to have gotten very black and white all of a sudden.

Plot based games are not intrinsically wrong in themselves. The problem is gamers, along with games jounalists and developers it seems not being able to appreciate more immediate, arcade-style games as a result of overdosing on cinematic epics (see my earlier comment on the reasons for SMB2).

As a result, lots of perfectly good arcade style games are criticised not on their own merits, but for not being like something else. It's like criticising pizza for not being ice cream; both foodstuffs, but two entirely different foodstuffs all the same.

[Hammie]

my first post here but i've been lurking for a while, i could'nt not post a reply to this though

as far as loading goes, i totally agree, long loading times totally put me off a game, the xbox is'nt all that bad for it but it's the main reason i'll never get a ps2

i got a gameube recently and am really suprised by loading times but then they did make a concious effort to keep them low, in comparison sony just threw a cheap and nasty dvd drive in the ps2

the best done game in recent years for me with regard to loading was ninja gaiden, on first load up it caches almost everything it needs to hard drive which does take a while, after that you have barely any loading times throught the whole game, it really does add to the immersion and it does'nt make dying and retrying as frustrating


it's like every game made now has to have a story, you can't have a driving game where you just drive, it's gotta be a rags to riches story of some retard in his modded nova with a bunch of cutscenes with the usual stereotypical characters and the most god awful music ever created, nfsu being a good example

and that's another thing....game music, what happened to original, memorable game music, now all you seem to need to do is sign up a couple of bands for a soundtrack, it's really a disturbing thing that the megadrive and snes have better music than 90% of current generation games, it's probably the biggest downside to cd/dvd consoles

will also add my agreement to game saving, dear god how long does it take to save your profile in tiger woods 2005, it's something like 8 button presses....i can't figure out if it's just catering for retards or there is some delopers out there that genuinely think that the more button preses to do something, the more fun it is

i can handle cutscenes the first time, i like to watch them usually, it's when you have to watch them again that it's annoying, splinter cell being the worst offender, it always seems to place a save point before a dialog/cutscene so every time you retry the part you have to sit through it, how can a developer make a trial an error game and put players through that crap every time they die?

the comments on gamelength are very valid too, padding out playtime by repeating content just seems to me to be a self admission that nobody is going to want to play the game again, put somebody through repetitive crap and they are'nt going to want to!

i seem to give up on so many games these days before i complete them, i used to think it's just because i'm getting older, but then a game like ninja gaiden comes along and i play it from start to finish loving every minute of it, it's not me it's the games

[winky]

my first post here but i've been lurking for a while, i could'nt not post a reply to this though

as far as loading goes, i totally agree, long loading times totally put me off a game, the xbox is'nt all that bad for it but it's the main reason i'll never get a ps2

Either my xbox is buggered or I expect better performance from it but loading times for xbox in my opinion are worse on the box than the ps2. Off the top of my head the exception is Vice City which takes a bloody age initially on the PS2 but it only has to do this once.

[Ady]

Hmm..

After a weekend of playing Outrun 2 on my friend's Xbox, I can confirm what you say to some extent.

I wouldn't say the loading times are worse than anything on the PS2, but I was genuinely shocked at how long it took to load in that game. From a machine with a HDD, no less.

[winky]

I think the problem is you expect the xbox to be quicker, therefore it seems worse.

Anyway not a good reason to not own a PS2

[Lyris]

I wish developers would spend more time making a game FUN and less time making it 20 hours long.

I can't agree more. I have work, friends, and university to deal with. Moving onto leisure time, a lot of that is spent watching films. Gaming time is limited. A lot of games sit on my shelf unfinished, and that is a deterrent to me buying new ones - "You shouldnt' buy new games if you haven't finished the ones you have..." etc etc.

I'm sure it's the same for most people my age.