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Game Length: A rant about PLAYING games

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    Game Length: A rant about PLAYING games

    This thread was "inspired" by my recent time on Burnout3 so I am sorry if I focus too much on this particular game through this post.

    When I play a game I like to be playing - testing my reflexes, being challenged or somehow influencing what is going on on the screen. Most people here know I love games like Ikaruga, but I am also happy to sit through something like Paper Mario or Final Fantasy 3/6j. In each of these games I turn them on, wait a short while and then begin to influence what is on the screen. This is how I would define a game, and its how games generally used to be.

    However, recently I have witnessed a worrying trend away from this which just seems to get worse and worse. I was hugely looking forward to finally getting my hands on Burnout3 after the glowing reports it has had everywhere - NTSC-UK included. I turned the game on with anticipation, and then almost exactly 1 hour later I turned it off again. Sixty minutes of my life were spent on a video game. Twenty minutes of those were spent playing a video game. Where did the other forty minutes go?


    Loading

    I am mainly a Gamecube gamer, but I also own both a PS2 and an XBox. The loading on the GC can sometimes annoy me - it breaks up action and hurts immersion, but recently I have been playing more and more games on the PS2 and XBox and found loading almost universally shocking. Burnout3 pauses for loading before doing anything and everything. Some of these breaks are short and some much longer, but they always manage to break up the action often to load stuff I didn?t ever ask to see! I have been really enjoying time trialling in Outrun2 recently - but every time I make a minor mistake and want to restart I have to wait for the whole stage to load again before I can have another go. It?s tiresome, breaks up immersion and is frustrating. I understand loading is sometimes necessary but how come large games like most of the GC line up manage to avoid it? Grand Theft Auto 3 - turn the game on and wait 10 minutes. You might be able to play by then - that?s worse than my spectrum! What is going on? Loading times are important - it?s about time more developers/console manufacturers put some effort into cutting them down.


    Cut scenes

    Rule 1: enable cut scene skipping. What possible reason can there be for ever forcing a player to watch a cut scene if he/she doesn?t want to? Cut scenes have become the norm in games; they are expected, but why? They add absolutely nothing to a game that cannot be done with interaction, and, in my opinion, is nothing more than lazy programming. In Burnout3 (sorry to harp on) I had to wait while the game individually panned around 6 separate (identical to me) cars which I had unlocked. This took a few minutes, and all I could do was watch. Why would anyone want to be put through that? What made the developers think we wanted our time wasted in this way? If I wanted to look at them I could always see them the next time it forced me through my car selection process for the 100th time.

    Panzer Dragoon Orta is another example of a game cut to pieces by pointless cut scenes. The very epitome of reflex based action - the on rails shooter, torn to pieces by stop start action while the game loads (see above), or while I am forced to watch a cut scene which adds absolutely nothing to the experience. Why? The momentum is lost, the excitement is lost, so some pathetic "story" can be explained to me about something which is totally separate from the game. I don?t play that game because I feel a connection with the character; I play it because I like reflex based action and a challenge. It?s madness. Imagine Super Mario World being cut up while we watched the plight of the Princess, or while it explained to us why Mushroom Kingdom is the way it is. I DONT CARE! Miyamoto got it right - the story is the least important aspect of a game so why do so many developers place such an emphasis on it?


    Tutorials

    If a game needs a tutorial then it?s badly made. It needs better introductory missions/levels that can be skipped. Some simulation based games can be very complex, and I will treat them separately here - although in many cases proper explanation of the controls can be achieved with the methods just described. Black & White sort of achieved this, although it was far too slow paced.

    Again I turn on Burnout3. Eager to get into the action I make a profile... then I enter my name, then I wait for it to load, then I am shown some video - explaining to me the whole purpose of the game. I don?t go to a movie and get the end spoilt for me at the start, who wants to know about all the nuances of the game before it has even begun? That?s part of the enjoyment of a game! As I hammer the X button, along with the other buttons in the vain hope of making it go away it dawns on me - are people so stupid that they would rather be told what to do than work it out for themselves? But the video continued. On and on. Why would I want to sit and watch someone telling me how to play a game instead of actually playing the damn thing? That?s why I bought Burnout3 the game, and not Fast and Furious the movie. This wasn?t so much a tutorial more a complete summary of the game - to the point where there was little point bothering to actually play it. Why not just show me a 20 hour movie of someone else playing the game - then I wouldn?t even need to bother using the controller at all.


    Artificial Extension

    This is a bit tenuously linked to this rant, after all during artificial extension you are actually playing the game; you just generally aren?t enjoying yourself much. This is quite baffling to me. I would define "artificial extension" of a game at being any method used to stretch the lifespan of a game by repeating previous sections or forcing people to repeat events. Many many games suffer from this - in fact just about any game released in the past few years does. It?s so important for a game to last 20 hours now this seems to overtake the importance of actually enjoying a game. See Burnout3's 100s of identical missions, or Outrun2's 10s of identical missions, or Wind Waker sending you around the map again and again, or Metroid Prime sending you back and forth across the entire map every other objective. People seem so intent on fully completing a game 100% they are willing to do the most boring things. So many people complained about the blue coin challenges in Mario Sunshine - why are people doing them if they are boring? Why are people trying to complete a game 100% if they are finding it boring? Often this manages to not get in the way of the main game (see Mario Sunshine, I don?t have a problem with this, I can simply avoid it if I am not enjoying it), but often it directly gets in the way in that it stops you progressing until you have completed a given section (Metroid Prime and Wind Waker are both guilty of this). Why do people need a game to be 20 hours long before they will buy it? Luigi's Mansion is one of my favourite games on the GC - it has about the same amount of content as Wind Waker it just isn?t overly drawn out. It?s concise and complete. Every part of it is enjoyable and every bit is new. This is surely the way games are meant to be! If I wanted to repeat a section I would play the game again.


    I was absolutely staggered when I loaded up two of my favourite games of the past few years (Radiant Silvergun and Super Smash Brothers Melee) and looked at my profiles. Both games I have spent 50+ hours on. According to the time keeping facilities of these games almost half of the time I had spent playing these game were not in the main game but in the menus, setting the game characteristics, and anything else other than actually playing the game. I am the sort of gamer who mashes the buttons until the action starts, yet in both of these games none of which suffer from any of the above problems outlined, I had still spent almost as much time not playing these games as playing them. I don?t dare think what proportion of time the average gamer actually spends playing (really playing) Burnout3, or Final Fantasy 10, or any one of the games now that seem more interested in letting the player watch action, wait for the game to load or tell the player how to play the game rather than actually letting him play it.

    It is so important now for games to have a good lifespan that companies will do anything to extend it using a variety of the above techniques (although loading must just be put down to poor programming rather than a method for extending lifespan). I believe this is why so many people find solace in old games, each of the above points are all but non-existent in many of the older games because hitting that 20 hour lifespan was never so important. Games were made, and they finished when they needed to finish.

    I wish developers would spend more time making a game FUN and less time making it 20 hours long.
    Last edited by rjpageuk; 27-10-2004, 15:24.

    #2
    I wish developers would spend more time making a game FUN and less time making it 20 hours long.
    Amen - that's one of the best posts I have ever read. Too many games now are not about what you bring to the table but rather it's all about what the game shows to the player. For me the best games are the ones designed around gameplay possibilites first and foremost - you've got a tool (character) and everything about this tool, the relationship between it, the player and the environment is worked out LONG before any sort of game exists for the character. I like learning how to use something like that and fully exploit what it can do within the world - it's like they've built a playground specifically for a toy they've designed, this to me is as good as gaming gets and why I love stuff like Psyvariar and Joe so much.

    I spend hours on end these days playing the very first room of the Devil May Cry 3 demo for this reason - Dante's got so many ologies to the way he moves now (there are countless tricks to make him do exactly what you want and it's beautiful) I get more out of that first room than I get out of most games full stop.
    Last edited by Saurian; 27-10-2004, 15:29.

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      #3
      I think agree with your overall point but you've said a couple of things (about skipping cutscenes etc) that compel me to shout "BALLS" in your face.

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        #4
        Everything you said, basically.

        I've got an unplayed copy of Jak 'n' Daxter on my shelf. Not unloaded, but unplayed - I've never managed to sit through the entire opening unskippable cutscene (at 20 minutes plus) in order to reach actual gameplay.

        I bought a cheap Devil May Cry cheaply a while back. Good news - cutscenes are skippable, though you have to find the right button to do it, and there are about five one after the other to get through for some surreal reason. Bad news - a whole bunch of wandering about for ages, without actually reaching a savepoint, in a vain search for something to hit. I'll let you know if I ever find anything.

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          #5
          Cmon man it's only 3 which are skipped by hitting select - in DMC you only have 3 short rooms before you start kicking off then it's non-stop! Mind you getting through them 3 rooms on the PAL version would probably take all day cos it's so slow!

          DMC has a lot of ologies in it that people miss completely - it's absolute bliss once you realise how it all works. DMC and Viewtiful Joe are the same core game, the basic system of fighting is executed in the same way and the mindset is very similar.

          In Joe you have visual cues to enemy attacks while in DMC you have audio cues, the main character like I said is like a fun toy that you can learn how to use to jedi levels of finesse.
          Last edited by Saurian; 27-10-2004, 15:39.

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            #6
            Front-end loading screens are the devil himself.

            SF3 - press Select and Start together in-game... *poof* Front end. Jackpot!!

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              #7
              I'm sure its all going to kick of beautifully (or at least as beautifully as it can on my crappy PAL machine - holy **** he's slow on it) in a minute, but I was just annoyed that I shoved the game in for a 30 minute test before dinner, and never saw a single target - sounds like I was about to, though.

              The fact that I'd just finished introducing myself to Joe probably didn't help matters - that game is absolutely solid!

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                #8
                Joe is a work of genius! Same thing again; you've got very rigid rules within the environment but because you're Joe you can take the absolute piss with the system and make it yours.

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                  #9
                  Maybe you'd know what you were doing if you didn't skip the cut scenes from the get-go?

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                    #10
                    I know exactly where you are coming from with this in terms of in-game tutorials. You mentioned Burnout 3 in your examples but it's actually Burnout 2 and its insipid Offensive Driving 101 mode that I recall.

                    I had to go through all these tutorials telling me how to play the game. I already knew everything it was telling me yet I was unable to actually take part in any races (the entire reason I'd bought the game in the first place) until I had 'drove into oncoming traffic' and 'use boost now' when it told me like an obedient little player.

                    Sure it may not have been that time consuming but it was pointless.

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                      #11
                      Excellent points, well made.

                      Seemingly pointless re-loads when restarting levels (a la Outrun2 and Burnout crash mode) are one of the biggest gripes I have with games. That and totally unnecessary, badly thought out game saving/loading procedures that require stupid numbers of button presses just to save your damn high scores etc.

                      On the xbox this should be pretty much unforgivable, given the hard-drive... EA, please tell me why the **** I have to go through about 15 different buttons presses to save my game on SSX3?

                      Save? Are you sure? Harddrive or memory card? Which save slot? What will you call it? There's a save there already! Overwrite? Are you sure? It's done! Press another button!


                      Edit - and to round it off for EA when they do manage to implement a save system on the Boxen that doesn't take half an hour to trawl through... is it just an accident that they consistently forget to save my soundtrack settings?

                      Or are they in fact making sure that I have to endure at least one of their licensed, approved-by-marketing-to-appeal-to-core-demographic, ****-rock tunes next time I fire the game up?

                      I wonder.

                      Absolutely ****ing pointless.
                      Last edited by FreQstyle; 27-10-2004, 16:00.

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                        #12
                        Hear, hear.

                        As for this:

                        Originally posted by rjpageuk
                        the story is the least important aspect of a game so why do so many developers place such an emphasis on it?
                        As harsh as this is going to sound, and as lovely a game it was back then, I lay the blame primarily at the door of the commercial success of FFVII (and the console RPG in general). Despite allegedly being "the most returned game of all time", its initial sales obviously sent out a message to publishers and developers everywhere. Since then, pretty much every game that comes out places too much emphasis on storytelling at the expense game playing.

                        It also makes my blood boil when games are criticised for being "too short" because they don't meet some unreasonable benchmark set by games like the above. It doesn't seem to matter to most that not all games need to be bloated epics (and not all gamers have that sort of time to spare). Games journalists who should know better seem to be just as bad when it comes to this as well...

                        That Sega's main motivation for creating Super Monkey Ball 2 was because people actually complained that the first game didn't have a story just about says it all. :/

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by mid
                          I've got an unplayed copy of Jak 'n' Daxter on my shelf. Not unloaded, but unplayed - I've never managed to sit through the entire opening unskippable cutscene (at 20 minutes plus) in order to reach actual gameplay.
                          You're missing out mate! Jak & Daxter (the first one!) is one of the most accessible and brilliant games I've played on PS2. The opening cut scene might be long and boring (I actually don't remember any of it) but once you play you will not see a 'loading' screen until you've finished the bloody thing.

                          The total lack of loading screens is an amazing achievement for a PS2 game. It plays like a Gamecube game in that respect.

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                            #14
                            It also makes my blood boil when games are criticised for being "too short"
                            I hear THAT! ft: - the way journalists drop that garbage on games makes me sick. Psyvariar 2 can be finished in about 20 mins, but I've put around 150 hours playtime into it. It's nothing to do with the length of the game, but the expectation that most gamers have now that games have to do everything for them and the length is determined by the time taken to get from intro to ending and nothing to do with the process of learning and improving your game.

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                              #15
                              I know Jak is rather nice - I borrowed it back when the game first came out, and in that instance eventually left the damn thing running while I watched a DVD instead. Having since deleted the savegame, I'm just failing to get around to doing the same again. I almost wouldn't mind so much if it weren't so bloody awful, too.

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