A nation that doesn't understand games

[Brats]

Quite.

I disagree with you Cacky that games are meant to be played, they are meant to be "enjoyed". There are many people on this planet that given a single room, infinite food, a toilet plus a copy of Virtual On and Twinsticks will not enjoy themselves. It all boils down to different tastes.

There seems to be an assumption that people who don't enjoy skill based games are not giving them enough time to really enjoy them. I don't agree, I think some people simply don't enjoy them, no matter how good they got at them. Just like if I sat you in front of Nosferatu 100 times and talked you through what made it such a ground breaking, brilliant film, you may still think it's a cranky, old German film.

I can't fathom why people are getting "pissed" just because some people have different tastes. That's all it boils down to.

[Marvelon]

It's a few pages back, but someone posted about playing THPS with style - your not alone! Tho after my "accident" I haven't played much THPS, I will eventually get back into it (I usually do) I'm gonna gor for style over scores... seeing as the internet highscores are going so high now it's no use trying to beat them.

[Ady]

I'm with Brats on this one.

As there are many twitch fans on this forum (myself included), I can't see how this can be a cut and dry east vs west issue. It's simply a matter of personal taste, surely.

Some like twitch games, others don't. Even the Japanese like their epics, (what with the popularity of RPGs). If anything, its 'epics' like FF7 that are to blame for the decline in arcade game popularity as they've redefined people's expectations of what a game should be.

The amount of xenophobic elitism being spewed in this thread is disgusting. I'm reminded of RedEye's otaku article a few issues back in Edge. We are ::all:: western gamers here, so when you make wild generalisations, you're also indicting yourself.

[Squirtle]

I'm with Brats on this one.

As there are many twitch fans on this forum (myself included), I can't see how this can be a cut and dry east vs west issue. It's simply a matter of personal taste, surely.

Some like twitch games, others don't. Even the Japanese like their epics, (what with the popularity of RPGs). If anything, its 'epics' like FF7 that are to blame for the decline in arcade game popularity as they've redefined people's expectations of what a game should be.

The amount of xenophobic elitism being spewed in this thread is disgusting. I'm reminded of RedEye's otaku article a few issues back in Edge. We are ::all:: western gamers here, so when you make wild generalisations, you're also indicting yourself.

What he said.

I do find it odd that that most bloated of console epics come from Japan and yet people are advocating Japan as some sort of twitch heaven.

Whoever gave the example of repetitive gaming - some like it/some don't - and the analogy to music earlier in this thread got it bang on the nail, if you ask me.

[Mayhem]

Repetitive/twitch gaming was all the rage during the mid 80s on the C64 at least... many, many titles with those two factors in common that were both enjoyable, required a lot of skill and could also be fun. I'd start naming some but I figure I wouldn't be able to stop

So the West IS used to it... and most of the inferred titles above were programmed right here in the UK. Maybe we've always been different from the rest of Europe and the US... but Ady has a point. We've matured and changed in general as a gaming nation in the 20 years due to the influx of Japanese software. What was popular during the time when UK software was huge is no longer so. Games from Nintendo, Konami, Sega etc are the reason here. Twitch is no longer big. I still like it, but most gamesplayers I know outside of these boards wouldn't give it a second look because they either haven't been brought up on it or just plain don't like it...

[carrick]

@Brats

If you stick someone in a room with any skill based game, alone, i'd be surprised if anyone would enjoy the experience.
Now, add a few more peeps to the mix and watch things twist. Always trying to better one another, pulling **** off for the camera. Yes!

I had the unfortunate experience of finding this out first hand with SoulCalibur2. With just me and the AI, i just found the whole experience soulless.

For anyone thinking of buying sc2/vf4evo, make sure you have the right environment.

Sorry for the ramble, it's early.

[delb3k]

An interesting topic so far and a damn good read, although there appears to be two main topics emerging so far

East Vs West
High skills/scores based Vs RPG/Adventure

As for me, I always think its a bit odd to say that software from a single part of the world is superior to any other really, it kinda does the other companies a disservice in the long run. While western developers might not be quite so imaginitive they still do make good titles. And yes, they tend not to make any good twitch style games, I think thats fairly safe to say, but they do excel at other diciplines (FPS, RTS etc). As has been said before, horeses for courses.

As for the high skills games, its a bit half and half IMO. Some people will find games they really do want to do better in while others might not really interest them.

For example, I`ve been playing fantavision for a wee while now, and have seen my scores increase steadily on each play but I never really got into VF4. I appreciate its good, I appreciate its deep, but I dont really get any enjoyment from it. I`m sure its the same for a lot of people, they appreciate the games and what you got to do in them, but that does not really mean you enjoy it or want to play it. In the end, if a game grabs you want to get better at it and will play it. If it does not, you really wont care one way or the other. However, from reading this it is seen as terribly bad thing to do (might not be the intention but thats whats happening) and I should be shouted at. Does this mean we do not understand the games?? I hope not.

Alongside that, I also like my adventure games though, and throughly enjoy going through prime etc, I would say they demand little skill and do kinda lead you by the hand, but people need that sometimes. You dont want to be challenged all the time or get annoyed when you miss that chain and you go all the way down to zero. I think the key is to keep a healthy balance between the two. If you want a challenge, you got your high scores game, if you want a more relaxing time a story driven adventure is usually a good bet.

In the end, you play your games to enjoy them, how you do it is all up to you. Just dont look down on other because they dont fill what your criteria is as not every gamer is the same

Rant over, cheers

[Brats]

@Brats

If you stick someone in a room with any skill based game, alone, i'd be surprised if anyone would enjoy the experience.
Now, add a few more peeps to the mix and watch things twist. Always trying to better one another, pulling **** off for the camera. Yes!

I had the unfortunate experience of finding this out first hand with SoulCalibur2. With just me and the AI, i just found the whole experience soulless.

For anyone thinking of buying sc2/vf4evo, make sure you have the right environment.

Sorry for the ramble, it's early.

I didn't quite mean it quite so literally, but I take your point. If I can rephrase the issue I was tring to raise, some people simply do not enjoy twich gaming to the the same level of others and there is nothing you can do to change that. There's nothing wrong with it either.

There does seem to be this attitude on gaming forums that if you dislike a certain game, then you don't "get" it. I've been accused of not "getting" a game like Shenmue, simply because I didn't enjoy it to the same level of others. Thing is, I "get" Shenmue perfectly and I can fully appreciate what Yu Suzuki's team was trying to achieve, but although their efforts were admirable they failed in a number of key areas. You could sit me in a room with 100 Shenmue enthusiasts and I still wouldn't warm any more to the title. That's just my opinion, it's neither any more wrong or right than the next person.

I subscribe to the notion that many people who dislike twitch gaming "get" it completely, they just know that they won't enjoy it as much as a story based game.

[Mayhem]

I subscribe to the notion that many people who dislike twitch gaming "get" it completely, they just know that they won't enjoy it as much as a story based game.

I do like you Brats... nail/head once more... replace "twitch" with "fighting" and you'll have certain people here frothing at the mouth. Is VF4Evo a good game by all accounts? Definitely. Is it FUN for everyone to play however? Certainly not. And just because the majority of people will not get a huge amount of enjoyment from it, does not mean that they "don't get it"... hence the probable reason for the score Edge gave it...

[Marvelon]

they appreciate the games and what you got to do in them, but that does not really mean you enjoy it or want to play it.

Too right. I didn't enjoy Halo.

[Tokuda]

The amount of xenophobic elitism being spewed in this thread is disgusting. I'm reminded of RedEye's otaku article a few issues back in Edge. We are ::all:: western gamers here, so when you make wild generalisations, you're also indicting yourself.

Ady- could you point me towards the apparent xenophobic elitism in this thread? I haven`t seen it myself.

As for Brats points- I don`t disagree with him, but as I said earlier, I have no issues with those who enjoy different games- of course some people won`t like playing skill-based games- we are all different and no one said otherwise. Gaming is a large medium and theres plenty of room for many genres and many styles of games- I haven`t seen anyone in this thread say otherwise.

I simply take issue with those who ignorantly look down upon skill-based twitch gaming, while they laud their experience type games.

[Ady]

Ady- could you point me towards the apparent xenophobic elitism in this thread? I haven`t seen it myself.

I'm referring to the sweeping statements about western gamers (a very large group of people) being philistines because some of them don't like the few twitch games that have been heralded throughout this thread.

To reiterate; personal taste counts for a lot, but to berate half of the entire gaming world because of the (personal) tastes of some of its populace seems a bit unfair to me. Again, as there are posters here who enjoy twitch gams, how can it be the failing of the entire western world if others don't?

I accept that twitch games may not be to the taste of a lot of massmarket gamers, but they do not represent the ENTIRE western gaming community.

I simply take issue with those who ignorantly look down upon skill-based twitch gaming, while they laud their experience type games.

Of course, but putting it down to some global malaise on the part of the west is a gross (and somewhat insulting) generalisation.

[Mayhem]

I should make the point here though that many experience-type games often require a lot of skill and skill-type games usually benefit from long term experience (eg. in such circumstances as certain fighting styles and how to deal with them). Whilst not being the main focus of a certain game, I certainly can't think of a game where the other aspect in question is not some part of the playing requirements...

[Valken]

I simply take issue with those who ignorantly look down upon skill-based twitch gaming, while they laud their experience type games.

I feel similar... I remember having similar disagreements with people who simply weren't willing to try a game because it was 2D, could be finished in 30 mins etc etc...

A lot of people seem to confuse this with a dislike for so called casual gamers or western gamers in general but people should know I don't think this is the case with most of the people who have posting in this thread.

I've had many people come into my flat and play Soukyugurentai/Terra Diver on an arcade machine in the corner and give up after 10 seconds saying "this is ****" without making an effort to see what the game is about. If they'd given in 30 minutes then said "it's not for me but I can see why you like it" I would've been a much happier bunny

[Tokuda]

I accept that twitch games may not be to the taste of a lot of massmarket gamers, but they do not represent the ENTIRE western gaming community.

No one said that they did.

The difference is though is that skill-based games are often amongst the mass-market games in Japan, whereas if you look at the PAL release schedule you will see almost no shooters getting released, so the only way that people who would otherwise like these kinds of games, can play them is by importing, and the only way they can gain knowledge of these games is pretty much through the internet. Couple that with widespread ignorance (and often disdain, if we`re being honest) of these games within Western print and online media (honestly honestly- theres no mags (as far as I know) that praise games like Evo. or Psyvarier either here or in the US.

Things are a lot more balanced in Japan, where people lap up both experience games and skill-based games by the bucketload (although like I said earlier in the thread, it does pain me somewhat that the Japanese remain ignorant of how ****ing cool FPSs can be).

I simply take issue with those who ignorantly look down upon skill-based twitch gaming, while they laud their experience type games.

Of course, but putting it down to some global malaise on the part of the west is a gross (and somewhat insulting) generalisation.

I don`t think anyone put it down to a global malaise, but some like myself at least can see the plain and obvious pattern here. No one here has suggested that all Western gamers don`t recognise twitch gaming (as like you said, we are all by definition Western gamers here).