A nation that doesn't understand games

[Squirtle]

Squirtle-

I thought it was clear what we were discussing. I explained myself clearly didn`t I? It was never an east vs west thing that some have made it out to be- of course it isn`t as simple as that.

You have, Tokuda. But i was just trying to bring it all together as there seems to be about 3 different threads running through this. I just wanted a little clarification as this is pretty interesting reading. No need to bite my head off.

[Squirtle]

Can someone just clarify what we are discussing now?

Is it the lack of twitch gaming in the west?

Is it the lack of decent coverage for said genre in the west?

Is it still an east vs west thing?

Here's something that just struck me though. Maybe the west likes a different kind of twitch (ie quick blast) gaming. Surely the sports games, racing games and the deathmatch FPS games that are so prevalent in the west are our equivalent of the 2D shooter/fighter or beat-em-ups so loved in the east? Like i said, just a thought, but maybe these fill the void for the quick blast that is filled by the likes of other games in the east.

The fact that Western gamers often dismiss games that don't fit their idea about what a good game should be...

As Brats said, why don't japanese like FPS? Same thing.

[Tokuda]

Squirtle-

I thought it was clear what we were discussing. I explained myself clearly didn`t I? It was never an east vs west thing that some have made it out to be- of course it isn`t as simple as that.

You have, Tokuda. But i was just trying to bring it all together as there seems to be about 3 different threads running through this. I just wanted a little clarification as this is pretty interesting reading. No need to bite my head off.

I guess this is the inherent problem with the written word- I didn`t mean to say what I said in any tone other than a purely neutral one. Sorry if you thought it was meant otherwise.

[Valken]

Yes but I feel that genre dislike is more extreme in the West... there's always exceptions to rules anyways!

In any case... I'm not endorsing the view that Western gamers are the main culprits but since I know about 10 people from the east... I can't really comment on people from Japan.

[Tokuda]

I think its time to define a few constants here so we don't get bogged down.

So am I right in assuming we all agree that:-

1. 2D and/or old-school twitch games are not as popular in the west as they once were.

2. Gaming has more cultural acceptance in Japan.

3. 'Experience games', and story-based epics have become more commonplace in gaming as a whole.

4. FPSs are not as popular in the east as they are here.

OK, assuming I'm correct with these points, I really think we need to start examining ::why:: these factors exist otherwise we'll end up going round in circles. Anyone with me?

Ady- I think we have to add that Western media completely misunderstands 2D/old school games (with few or no exceptions).

What you`re proposing is a good idea.

[Squirtle]

Squirtle-

I thought it was clear what we were discussing. I explained myself clearly didn`t I? It was never an east vs west thing that some have made it out to be- of course it isn`t as simple as that.

You have, Tokuda. But i was just trying to bring it all together as there seems to be about 3 different threads running through this. I just wanted a little clarification as this is pretty interesting reading. No need to bite my head off.

I guess this is the inherent problem with the written word- I didn`t mean to say what I said in any tone other than a purely neutral one. Sorry if you thought it was meant otherwise.

No worries.

[Brats]

I certainly haven`t implied it, and I`m not so sure that others have to be honest.

Sorry, but I couldn't resist a few choice cuts:

our American cousins are having difficulty with the concept

in general, the West (including the media, players and suchlike), bar a very few exceptions, has problems understanding skill-based, score-based games which require commitment and practice

People here are just ****ing lazy - all they want is a slightly more interactive form of watching TV rather than something which requires practice, social play and a little commitment. Games like GTA VG etc disgust me, they are pathetic. People here havent got a clue

the main problem I feel is that most Western and UK gamers are ****.

Its more the fact that skill-based games are constantly and consistently misunderstood in the West.

Surely it can`t be disputed that the vast majority of the West are misunderstanding skill-based gaming- tell me where this isn`t true

the western press just doesn't ever seem to get it. With our arcade culture dying 10 years ago and the nature of most games, they can't appreciate when a skill game comes their way.

The next big skill game will probably be R-Type Final or maybe Viewtiful Joe... And I bet you that every single review you will read in the western press will mark them down for being too short. Every single bloody one of them.

not just said publications that haven`t got a clue, but sadly (and to be honest- it isn`t really their fault) but most Western gamers.

Sorry, but if you accept the fact that FPS are skill based games (and I can't see how you could possibly dispute it) then all of the above comments are were either a) posted rather hastily or b) are sadly just the usual anti-west bashing .

Anyway, I hope people can see that the West can enjoy skill based games, just different ones from the ones Japanese gamers tend to enjoy.

I say again, Viv la Difference!

[Treble]

I say again, Viv la Difference!

Thanks a lot, Mary Poppins.

[Tokuda]

Brats fair enough, and I have never disputed that FPSs aren`t skillful games nor that they aren`t recognised enough in Japan.

However my point still stands-

Of course people have different tastes, but I just get annoyed when skill-based games are berated simply because the reviewer was too close-minded or impatient to play the game properly.

Just to reiterate, that doesn`t mean that I think he is wrong for not liking the game- we all have our own tastes, but disliking something and misunderstanding something are 2 completely different things.

Like many others have said before, they can be mature enough to recognise that they wouldn`t enjoy a game like Evo., but at the same time they can recognise how great the game is.

Now- in Japanese media, FPS games don`t receive particularly bad reviews (Halo scored pretty well for example) its just they aren`t particularly popular.

EDIT- Just wanted to add that while many people (including some of my friend) belittle me for wanting to play (shock horror ) a game that is 2D or doesn`t have amazing graphics, throughout all my time here, I`ve never met any Japanese gamers who didn`t respectfully speak about games that the West prefers.

I think anyone who thinks this underlying attitude towards old school/skill-based games isn`t prevalent in Western media is being more than a little ignorant.

[Brats]

Brats fair enough, and I have never disputed that FPSs aren`t skillful games nor that they aren`t recognised enough in Japan.

However my point still stands-

Of course people have different tastes, but I just get annoyed when skill-based games are berated simply because the reviewer was too close-minded or impatient to play the game properly.

Just to reiterate, that doesn`t mean that I think he is wrong for not liking the game- we all have our own tastes, but disliking something and misunderstanding something are 2 completely different things.

Like many others have said before, they can be mature enough to recognise that they wouldn`t enjoy a game like Evo., but at the same time they can recognise how great the game is.

It wasn't this point I was addressing in that last post so much, more the assumption by many people on this thread (yourself included) that the West does not understand skill based games.

But anyway, back to the point you mention, I'm not sure I still agree (sorry!). If I were to review Shenmue, I probably would berate the title (although I would be impressed by its ambitions) and I can guarantee I would be inundated with PM's saying I had completely misunderstood the title.

Now- in Japanese media, FPS games don`t receive particularly bad reviews (Halo scored pretty well for example) its just they aren`t particularly popular.

Most Japanese skill based games score pretty well over here too. Psyvariar, Evo and PDO all scored 7/10 in Edge which is a good score (at least on a par with what Halo and Metroid prime scored in Famitsu). Yet some people seem to have taken major umbridge with these reviews for some odd reason.

[Valken]

Brats,

But anyway, back to the point you mention, I'm not sure I still agree (sorry!). If I were to review Shenmue, I probably would berate the title (although I would be impressed by its ambitions) and I can guarantee I would be inundated with PM's saying I had completely misunderstood the title.

Having been flamed for reviews before I know how that feels but honestly... if you can justify what you're saying then noone has the right to tell you you're wrong and didn't "get" it.

Fans of a game always behave like a fanboy when it gets a bad wrap (I'm expecting serious hate mail for my forthcoming WindWaker review for another site) but I don't think that's the issue in this thread.

[Tokuda]

Brats,

But anyway, back to the point you mention, I'm not sure I still agree (sorry!). If I were to review Shenmue, I probably would berate the title (although I would be impressed by its ambitions) and I can guarantee I would be inundated with PM's saying I had completely misunderstood the title.

Having been flamed for reviews before I know how that feels but honestly... if you can justify what you're saying then noone has the right to tell you you're wrong and didn't "get" it.

The mans right again

If you look at the actual text of pretty much all Gun Valkrie reviews (where the controls were berated) or of all Psyvarier reviews (ntscs is the only one that explains the game system properly AFAIK) , or of any PN03 review (too short, too hard, crap controls, repetitive), or of any Evo. review (again the game system is barely explained- all there is is talk of kumite- and according to another high-profile review the game has apparently not got arenas as good as DOA3 (LOL!) and the moves are a bit off apparently.

If you a review explains the game and why it has scored what it has (with good reasons), then thats fair enough, but that isn`t what I`m seeing myself.

[Soi]

On the subject of reviewing skill based games, how would you rate chess (the physical game, not a computer based version)? It is undoubtedly extremely skill based with loads to offer the dedicated player. But if you had never seen it before and someone asked your opinion of it? I would probably say that it seemed a bit odd and probably wouldn’t appreciate a fraction of its depth. Still, even for a beginner, with no pre-conceived ideas about the game, it is clearly quite good. The fact that the best players plan moves 30 or so turns in advance would completely escape me. I might score it a 6 or 7. Would I be wrong in scoring chess like that? I think not, as without the knowledge that chess is a really great game, it is unrealistic to expect someone new to it to appreciate it. Hence EVO is not raved about over here, and Halo is not raved about in Japan. Both great games, but both might be inaccessible to someone who didn’t understand them.

We, as a hemisphere, play lots of FPS because this type of game has captured the imagination of the gaming public and media and hence they are popular. Eastern gamers on the other hand have not embraced this genre with the same verve. Probably simply because the company that did most to popularise FPS were American. The whole lone space marine kicking butt scenario is about as American as it gets. If the first few FPS games had been made by Nintendo, featuring for example Metroid, maybe the Japanese would be crazy for FPS games now.

As Brats said: Viv (sic) la difference!

My point is that our preconceptions play a large part in how we appreciate things. Humans are humans, and I refuse to believe that the Japanese for example are in any fundamental way different to us.

But more importantly I don’t see why anyone is arguing about this at all. If we (as a group of people in this forum) were completely satisfied with Western gaming, we would, we wouldn’t spend all this time buying/playing/talking about import games. We are the enlightened few, but you can’t blame the masses. They are not all stupid, just ill informed.
Send them to this site for some education, I say.

[Brats]

Tok m8,

Using Gun Valkerie as an example, I'm surprised that you can't appreciate that many people would simply not get on with the GV controls. Personally I found them fine, but I can see how many people would find them awkward, therefore I dispute what you are implying that reviewers that berated GV for its controls are ignorant. They are simply expressing a valid opinion that is shared by many.

[Concept]

We, as a hemisphere, play lots of FPS because this type of game has captured the imagination of the gaming public and media and hence they are popular. Eastern gamers on the other hand have not embraced this genre with the same verve. Probably simply because the company that did most to popularise FPS were American. The whole lone space marine kicking butt scenario is about as American as it gets. If the first few FPS games had been made by Nintendo, featuring for example Metroid, maybe the Japanese would be crazy for FPS games now.

I think it's actually because a lot of Japanese people supposedly experience motion sickness when playing FPS games.

Although this could be an urban myth.