ZX Spectrum, an unbeaten classic?

[gunrock]

One thing that no one has touched on, is that graphical adventures (you know text adventures with graphics in the top part of the screen) seemed to be better on the Spectrum. The gfx drew quicker (thanks to that hafty 3.5mhz CPU) and they seemed a bit higher in resolution. Maybe it's my memory, and having said that once you'd seen every location drawn in a dozen times you tended to turn the gfx off.

BTW, Mayhem - I love your top ten, but where the fsck is BOULDERDASH!!

That was one game that was definitley poorer on the Speccy.

[gunrock]

Hehe, the spectrum vs C64 debate still rages strong I see. Brilliant.

It's a little hard to see how anyone can argue that the spectrum is better from a technical pov though. Maybe it was better on a price-performance ratio, but that's about it.

Hold on there Mr Pon!

One area you missed which was important in the 80's was the quality of the built-in programming language. The Spectrum had a lovely version of BASIC, very powerful too, with loads of drawing commands, that kids could knock out some simple crap in no time. The same cannot be said of the C64. Commodore BASIC 2.0 sucked big-time, it was essentially the same piece of crap that was in the VIC-20 (which was my first home computer) some three years before hand.

As stated, I was a C64 owner and got into demo making with my "crew", so I learnt 6502 the hard way and I did benefit from it, but I reckon I would have learnt a whole lot quicker if I had had access to a cool and powerful BASIC early on.

Gunrock

[gunrock]

Ever noticed how many Spectrum games were perfectly ported to C64 btw? Head over Heels. Frostbyte. Manic Miner. Skooldaze. etc etc. They looked and played exactly like the spectrum version. The 2 colour graphics, the high resolution (yep, the commodore could do this, it wasn't all blocky multi-coloured sprites).

Put the C64 version of Elite next to the Spectrum version or the BBC B version and see what that extra 2.52mhz will do for you (or 2.92mhz in the case of the beeb). And no, I don't care for trimbles...

[Mayhem]

Oh I know about Elite. Elite on the C64 did suck compared to the Beeb version, loved that one.

Oh and you can blame M$ for the Commodore Basic

@Gunrock... Boulderdash? In the next 10 games below them

[MD]

There main ploy seemed to be order large quanities of components, not pay the suppliers, then buy them out when they were heading for the wall... that got the cost down no end...

Not gonna argue with that there as it was true, though that was Jack Tramiel's way of doing business rather than Commodore's philosophy in general

Didn't see the shareholders complain.

Starstrike II a year later (On the Spectrum) would show how you could do fast filled shaded polygons.

Play "Space Rogue" and see that yes the C64 can do moving filled-in polygons as well

Just rather slowly...

Dunno R-Type looked very pretty as did Trap Door.

Yes they did. But boot up a C64 emulator and load the four games in question I mentioned and tell me the Spectrum could come anywhere near anything there

That is still a fairly unfair comparason, like saying what looks better this Ferrari F40 or thie Ford Ka?

Oh and that's still nothing to what demo writers came up with. And before you say, yes I know the same happens on the Spectrum too, I've seen a few of them and figured it couldn't be the same machine I saw 20 years ago either

Ah the lovely spectrum multicoloured pictures.

For the record my top 10 C64 is: IK+ (C64 first)

Correct.

Wizball (C64 first)

Correct.

Bubble Bobble (all same time)

Correct.

Mercenary (800 first?)

Yes Atari 800 was first.

Paradroid (C64 first)

Yes, although the Spectrum version didn't look that much different...

Impossible Mission (C64 first)

Correct.

Laser Squad (all same time)

Nah Nahhhhh. Laser Squad was released on the Spectrum over 8 months earlier. Then again it was based on the classic Spectrum game Rebelstar Raiders.

Mayhem in Monsterland (C64 only)

Correct.

The Sentinel (C64 first)

It would have appeared on the BBC first, but it would have sold fairly averagely.

Dropzone (800 first)

Correct, although Archer Maclean has stated that he hated the Commodore 64 version, he only released it because of the money. The Atari 800 version is superior too.

6 C64 first titles there, does that make me the exception?

Yes but you did sneak in a Spectrum game in there too. As well as 2 Atari 800 games, which are superior on the 800 too.

Still better on the Spectrum, well technically the best version is the stupidly high res version on the Amstrad PCW!.

Did you ever see the unofficial Amiga conversion? That was quite stunning. Also someone is redoing it for PC... I give you some pic links...
[/quote]

Yes I saw it, it was very very good. There should port it to the GBA.

Still the Spectrum boasts probably more titles then any other home computer on the market.

It might be close, but the C64 has quite the edge... mainly due to the obvious US produced software on top of the European etc releases. Estimates are probably around the 20k mark so far for games alone...

It's difficult to get a precise number due to the large amount of educational stuff done on the Spectrum and all the unofficial stuff done in Russia and India. I would still stick my head out and say the Spectrum has more software.

[Vaipon]

Yeah, the commodore basic was a lot more difficult than the spectrum equiv. To produce a beep on the spectrum, you just used the beep command. To produce the same thing on C64 required at least 25 lines of basic code and loads of "poke" commands. Spectrum basic was far better.

[Mayhem]

@MD... having spoken to Archer in person in length about Dropzone (ooo name dropping ), whilst it is true that he converted it to make more money, he also did it for the challenge and because he was looking into moving into C64 coding and wanted to see what the machine could do. I do like the 800 version of course, it's hardcore for me to ramp up on and give me a better workout. Still can get 500k on it though

He's also the only programmer to have two entries on my list, having also written IK+ 8)

I'll give you Laser Squad, I rechecked and the C64 version came out later than I thought it did. Not sure about The Sentinel though, I played the BBC version at school, but the Beeb geek in our class who got all the latest releases for the machine didn't have his copy until after I got mine. So god knows on that one, maybe it did, maybe it didn't. Unless you can tell me when the Beeb release was, because I know when I got the C64 version.

There's god knows how much unofficial C64 stuff floating about Eastern Europe (especially Poland and Hungary), Hong Kong and China for starters. So both machines are in the same boat. We'll probably never know the real answer on which machine has more...

[Super Stu]

hehe, nice debate. I'll just add this: with the possible exception of the Dreamcast and the Amiga, I sincerely doubt folk will ever get as attached to their hardware to the degree that old skool 8bit computer folk do.

[quirky]

Paradroid (C64 first)

Yes, although the Spectrum version didn't look that much different...

Hang on a second!

Paradroid was never released on the Speccy. The closest you get is Quazatron, a rip off of the gameplay but done in isometric 3D.

Played PD for the first time in years last night. I hadn't got a clue what I was supposed to be doing.

[Super Stu]

Hang on a second!

Paradroid was never released on the Speccy. The closest you get is Quazatron, a rip off of the gameplay but done in isometric 3D.

are you sure?

[Mayhem]

Same name (almost), different game. We're talking about "Paradroid" by Hewson Software, written by Andrew "XR3i on a Uridium pass please" Braybrook (c) 1985.

Or basically this

http://www.lemon64.com/games/details.php?ID=1888

[MD]

Hi,

@MD... having spoken to Archer in person in length about Dropzone (ooo name dropping ),

Ditto. :P Every been to his house too.

whilst it is true that he converted it to make more money, he also did it for the challenge and because he was looking into moving into C64 coding and wanted to see what the machine could do.

He gave the impression that the Commodore 64 was the devils spawn. He told me that he hated the Commodore 64 version due to lack of colours and some other things.

I do like the 800 version of course, it's hardcore for me to ramp up on and give me a better workout. Still can get 500k on it though

I like it too, it's a nice game. Prefer to play the Atari 800 version tho.

He's also the only programmer to have two entries on my list, having also written IK+ 8)

Indeed, he was a talented guy (if fairly arogent).

I'll give you Laser Squad, I rechecked and the C64 version came out later than I thought it did.

Easy mistake to make.

Not sure about The Sentinel though, I played the BBC version at school, but the Beeb geek in our class who got all the latest releases for the machine didn't have his copy until after I got mine. So god knows on that one, maybe it did, maybe it didn't. Unless you can tell me when the Beeb release was, because I know when I got the C64 version.

The BBC version was ready before the C64 version but was released after the C64 version. The Mode 2 BBC Text font should have given you an idea about it's origin.

However I prefer the Spectrum version as it was faster, played the same and had the same musical ditties as the C64 version (programmed by the Spectrum tune smith himself Mr Tim Follin).

There's god knows how much unofficial C64 stuff floating about Eastern Europe (especially Poland and Hungary), Hong Kong and China for starters. So both machines are in the same boat. We'll probably never know the real answer on which machine has more...

Have to call it a draw then. ;P

My Spectrum Ton Ten consists of...

1) Back to Skool - Microsphere
2) Turbo Espirit - Durrell
3) Head over Heels - Ocean
4) Deathchase - Microsphere
5) Laser Squad - Target Games
6) Storm Bringer - Mastertronic
7) Lords of Midnight - Beyond
8) I Ball II - Firebird
9) The Trap Door - Piranha
10) Ant Attack - Quicksilva
11) Football Manager - Addictive (no only joking...)

More or less all these where Spectrum first or Spectrum only and most of them are still very playable today (hence they being in my Ton Ten. :P)

Re : Paradroid / Quazatron, yeah I know they are slightly different. I mean Quazatron is in Isometric, in a higher resolution, and probably just a bit better. Written by the other half of Graftgold Steve Turner (who still works with Andrew Braybrook in a insurance firm...)

[quirky]

Hang on a second!

Paradroid was never released on the Speccy. The closest you get is Quazatron, a rip off of the gameplay but done in isometric 3D.

are you sure?

Some one beat me to it! Different game

I've not played Quazatron, so can't comment on it...

Oh and my Speccy top 10 would have Chaos in it. A game written by Julian Gollop before he made Laser Squad, it's ace and I still play it occasionally. No faffing about like LS and it's faster to play... though single player's not as deep/strategic multiplayer's a right hoot.

I could never get into Lords Of Midnight though - it sounds ace, all Tolkieny and stuff, but I just can't get the hang of it at all

[Mayhem]

Heh... Archer's house is erm... quite something to take in, isn't it?

You're not a UKVACer by any chance MD? Quite a few people I know are and hence have far closer links to Archer than I do because they are heavy into the retro arcade scene like he is.

I know he doesn't like the C64 version of Dropzone compared to the Atari 800 one for the reasons you stated. Business is business however, and he did what he did on the C64 because he was a talented chap and the bloody stuff would sell. Which it did. I did make the point that whilst his opinion of the C64 might not as great as the 800, he couldn't argue that it was primarily responsible for getting him where he is today. He had to concede that one at least

Didn't know that (the release dates) about "The Sentinel", though as I knew who Geoff Crammond was and had played "Revs" at that point, I know about the origins and his use of the BBC

It just surprised me at the time that I had a copy of the game before the Beeb geek did...

Hmm your top 10 list heh...

1) C64 didn't get it, pity, I did enjoy Skool Daze (which did make the C64).
2) C64 version was crap tbh, I'm therefore hoping the Speccy version was a lot better originally
3) Got, played, loved to death, fully beat (all 5 crowns) at one point
4) Don't believe this got a conversion
5) I'll have to challenge you to some games of this in the future. Did you ever get the expansion pack with the extra missions (up to #7)?
6) Made it to the C64 but very late on.
7) Another classic that sadly did not make as big an impact on the C64 as it should have.
8 ) C64 version actually is a Speccy port, horror on horror. Still plays well though.
9) Likewise I think, but still a good game
10) Another to get a conversion and also a decent one.

No Ultimate games at all though?

[MD]

One thing that no one has touched on, is that graphical adventures (you know text adventures with graphics in the top part of the screen) seemed to be better on the Spectrum. The gfx drew quicker (thanks to that hafty 3.5mhz CPU) and they seemed a bit higher in resolution. Maybe it's my memory, and having said that once you'd seen every location drawn in a dozen times you tended to turn the gfx off.

Something like that... Adventure games were plentiful on the Spectrum thanks to the Quill and GAC (and a decent BASIC). Although memoriable games text adventure games are thin on the ground, but there are thousands of them out there. Your Sinclair had a top Adventure section too, although there were Commodore 64 adventure games, Adventures didn't quite stick out in the same way as the Speccy.

BTW, Mayhem - I love your top ten, but where the fsck is BOULDERDASH!!

That lovely Atari 800 game?

Ever noticed how many Spectrum games were perfectly ported to C64 btw? Head over Heels. Frostbyte. Manic Miner. Skooldaze. etc etc. They looked and played exactly like the spectrum version. The 2 colour graphics, the high resolution (yep, the commodore could do this, it wasn't all blocky multi-coloured sprites).

Maybe you should play them side by side... Head over Hells for example is slower then the Spectrum version, no doubt to make it easier. , Skooldaze doesn't feel right, play them both for a while and you'll see what I mean. And Manic Miner was ported to everything, the Dragon 32 had a decent version with some nice title music, the MSX version was cute (and nearly sold in Japan too). Manic Miner was a fairly simple game with sprites so of course the C64 would have been able to do a good conversion of it, all the conversion were good...

Ever see anyone try and do it the other way round, porting from C64 to Spectrum? Way of the Exploding fist. Uridium. Beach Head 2. etc etc. The spectrum versions were nothing like as good as the C64 originals.

Big sprite based games, right... Way of the Exploding Fist, played well on the Spectrum, Uridium, not as good but still an excellent conversion, Beach Head 2, spectrum version was terrible.

That says sommat about the hardware imo.

Not really maybe if you choose games that weren't sprite based... The Sentinel is probably better on the Spectrum then the Commodore 64 if just because of the higher resolution and the quicker updating speed.

Carrier Command on Spectrum, excellent 3D conversion of the Amiga / PC game, +3 version lost nothing of the 16bit versions. C64 version, well it's sprite based and in 2D....

The 2 games that spring to mind that the spectrum could never reproduce at anything like the same level as the C64 managed, and that sold commodore's machine to me are:
Dropzone

A game that originated on the Atari 800 and the author says is better on the Atari 800? Nice start. :P

Uridium

Nice game, still very playable even to this day.

Both had a raster scroller that ran at 50 cycles per second, just like many advanced arcade machines at the time. Nothing on the spectrum came close to being as smooth and fast as either of those two games. It was this "arcade like" quality of the C64 that sold it to me and poached me away from the spectrum. That and the SID chip of course. Not saying the spectrum was a bad machine (some of the games were absolutely amazing), but I know a better piece of hardware when I see it and the C64 was blatantly it.

Better piece of hardware for playing music and doing arcade based games yes. But being an excellent piece of hardware doesn't mean anything, a lot of people (including Archer Maclean) would argue that the Atari 800 was technically a better machine then the C64, but Atari wanted to control programmers and Commodore wanted to help programmers.

The Spectrum was better at games that needed more number chrunching as the Z80 could do 16bit math and was faster. It had a smaller screen so could shift data quicker then the C64 could.

If you were lucky enough to have the option of C64 or Spectrum, 99% of people chose C64.

Spectrum games were normally cheaper tho.

Everyone's right in this timeless debate though, it's all just a matter of opinion, and depends on what types of games you prefer. It's a little hard to see how anyone can argue that the spectrum is better from a technical pov though. Maybe it was better on a price-performance ratio, but that's about it.

Well it depends on what Technical bits your looking at. Looking past the SID and graphics chip, the commodore 64 is fairly weedy. They should have mave upgraded the C64c with a 2Mhz or Faster 6502. Make it software selectable and bobs your uncle a decent machine, of course they tried that with the C128 but they fecked that up by trying to make it three different and imcompatable machines. Nice one Commodore...

The Spectrum was cheap and cheerful, so sold well.It was fairly fast due to the nippy Z80A and I think the Spectrum is technically good due to it's limititations, you just had to be a good programmer. It has one fairly decent upgrade in the Spectrum 128, which unlike the C128 was taken onboard and the features used and exploited.

It's like cars, the Spectrum is a Ford Ka, cheap, realiable, cheap to run, a reasonable drive. Where the C64 is a BMW 330xi, more expensive, goes faster, less MPG, nicer ride... both negatives and positives. (And yes Neil I did check the MPGs and the Ford Ka get on average 7mpg more.).