ZX Spectrum, an unbeaten classic?

[MD]

Heh... Archer's house is erm... quite something to take in, isn't it?

Yeah it is, esp his arcade section in his house as well as his basment full of sports cars. O_O

I met Archer as he 'Helped' (I used helped lightly...) Game On by lending some of his machines. He also forbidded me to run Dropzone on the Commodore 64...

I did make the point that whilst his opinion of the C64 might not as great as the 800, he couldn't argue that it was primarily responsible for getting him where he is today. He had to concede that one at least

Think he made more money from IK+ then he did from Dropzone, so maybe he wouldnt... :P

It just surprised me at the time that I had a copy of the game before the Beeb geek did...

Yeah well it was released first on the C64, probably cause it would do much much better.

Hmm your top 10 list heh...

Good innit.

1) C64 didn't get it, pity, I did enjoy Skool Daze (which did make the C64).

I believe there was no sequel due to poor sales of the first game.

2) C64 version was crap tbh, I'm therefore hoping the Speccy version was a lot better originally

Much much better, the C64 version seems to have been programmed by someone who had learnt 6502 in a afternoon.

3) Got, played, loved to death, fully beat (all 5 crowns) at one point

Play the speccy one over the c64 one it's harder.

5) I'll have to challenge you to some games of this in the future. Did you ever get the expansion pack with the extra missions (up to #7)?

No but loved the first one, funny that the PC version seemed to lack things that the Speccy had. Will look at the C64 one.

7) Another classic that sadly did not make as big an impact on the C64 as it should have.

Do you think it was because it wasn't an arcade game?

8 ) C64 version actually is a Speccy port, horror on horror. Still plays well though.

Spectrum version is class, fast with lots of colour and requiring skill to play, who says the Spectrum can't do fast arcade paced games? Speech was funny as well 'Oh no!'

No Ultimate games at all though?

No because most of them are ****e now. There are a few that are still good Knightlore, Jetpac and one or two others but most of them suck cheese nowdays. :/

[Vaipon]

@MD

/me needs to go find an Atari 800! I was never lucky enough to have the opportunity of owning one of these machines.

I had no idea so many great games were released for this format, especially not some of the established C64 "classics" like Dropzone. I'd love to play the Atari 800 versions. Just out of interest, was the Atari 800 the machine which got a Lucasfilm game "Rescue on Fractalus" first? I remember seeing this game on a TV program and being amazed by it, but it was obviously not running on a 64. It was later released on the Commodore, but I always wondered which machine it was running on originally (and also a lot faster than the C64 version). The whole game felt like it was ported from another format, especially the options screen font which was huge and not fitting for a C64 native title.

The spectrum was definitely a faster number cruncher. I was always a bit disappointed with C64 Elite compared to the Beeb version. Never played it on the spectrum, but I can believe it was a lot faster. The Spectrum/Commodore situation was in a way similar to the Megadrive/SNES one, where one machine had a faster CPU but the other was loaded with custom hardware. It's great having two machines that are geared very differently in the same generation though, as it offers a greater variety of game types across the formats.

I'm gonna go fire up the spectrum emulator I think and catch up on some of the later games that I missed out on when I switched to commodore.

[Mayhem]

Think he made more money from IK+ then he did from Dropzone, so maybe he wouldnt... :P

I meant writing games on the C64 in general, not one particular game. C64 Dropzone and the two IK games put him totally on the map.

No but loved the first one, funny that the PC version seemed to lack things that the Speccy had. Will look at the C64 one.

I can send you the hack of C64 "Laser Squad" someone did to incorporate all 7 missions into the title menu (ie. no need to mess about with expansion packs, it's all there on one disc side immediate to hand). Definitely an incredible game almost 15 years on.

Do you think it was because it wasn't an arcade game?

Strategy and adventure games were popular on the C64, especially because of the disc drive functionality. As for Lords of Midnight, it sold okay, but not great. No idea why, got great reviews and all. Just one of those things. As a consequence, Doomdark's Revenge was almost not converted to the C64. Fortunately someone decided that it should grace the C64 as well. That would be been a travesty...

//notes he would like to get an Atari 800 as some point, but would only do it if he could get a disc drive also with it. Jesus, some of the loading times on tape were worse than the C64! I doubt I'd have the patience to wait 20 minutes for Dropzone

Fortunately I do know a number of people with plenty of copied discs...

[Ginger Tosser]

I have to say i owe a lot to Sir Clive Sinclair and the Spectrum. It started my IT career.

Thanks Sir Clive, i owe you a beer !

[Commander Marklar]

Yeah, me too. Plus, my Dad was into writing Speccy software - anyone heard of Copy Clone? No...? Oh well He did quite a few things in his spare time, pretty much like everyone else at the time 'cos it was a very accessible machine - all those Marshell Cavendish mags, people like Toni Baker documenting the ins and outs of the Z80, etc.... I used to spend most of my days growing up playing on the Speccy when I should've been learning stuff

He also suggested that Your Spectrum include a Train Spotter award for mistakes in the mag too Great topic though, you guys seriously know your stuff

[Ady]

I owned a C64 back in the day. Most of my friends had Spectrums and were the most cocky, voiciferous computer owners around.

I'd often visit said friends houses to check out their wonderful Spectrum versions of games I had on my C64 and really couldn't see what they thought they had to brag about.

Conversely, apart from the occasional superior Spectrum conversion of an arcade game (which says more about the programming team than the hardware), these Spectrum friends stopped bragging once they saw the C64 in action.

I therefore conclude taht Speccy fanboys are the most delusional people to walk the earth. Admit it; the C64 owned you and you know it deep down in that colour-clashed heart of yours.

[Vaipon]

I therefore conclude taht Speccy fanboys are the most delusional people to walk the earth. Admit it; the C64 owned you and you know it deep down in that colour-clashed heart of yours.

Heh, I know what you mean. There was one friend of mine who was adamant that the spectrum was superior to a C64 even when he played many of the commodore machine's games extensively. Fair enough, he's entitled to his opinion. Later though, after I got rid of my C64, I got an Amiga. The fool still insisted that the spectrum +2 was the superior machine to the 16bit Amiga? wtf??? When I loaded Speedball 2, what was he seeing that I wasn't? He was so blindly loyal to the spectrum, he was beyond any kind of reasoning.

About 2 years later, he finally admitted defeat and got himself an Amiga.

Blind faith...

[MD]

I therefore conclude taht Speccy fanboys are the most delusional people to walk the earth. Admit it; the C64 owned you and you know it deep down in that colour-clashed heart of yours.

I'll remember that as I play Back To Skool, Carrier Command, Death Chase, Turbo Esprit, Elite, Knot in 3D, etc.

Games that appeared on all formats were generally better on the C64 if they were arcade or action games, but get it down to 3D or serious games and the C64 look like a childs toy. Even the Sentinel which appear on the C64 first plays better on the Spectrum as it has Sqaure pixels (rather the rectangle ones on the C64), a higher resolution and it moves a lot lot quicker. Yes it's in monochrome but it's still utterly playable.

Now the C64 is a great machine, but the Spectrum did seem to have more in the way of serious games. I did have both, so you can't accuse me of being a Spectrum fanboy, but I still prefered the Spectrum as the games just felt better and there were a lot more games that required my brain.

But can I call you a Commodore 64 fanboy of the highest order?

[Mayhem]

Did you have a disc drive MD for the C64? If not, then you missed most of the "serious" games for the C64. Infocom/Level 9/Rainbird adventures, SSI strategy games, all the RPGs (Interplay, SSI, Mindscape, Origin etc), Microprose simulations and so on. Also most of them were American. Worked fine on our machines though as I own a whole slew of them. You can't say the C64 lacked serious games because there are tons of them

Just mainly on disc not tape

[Ady]

I'll remember that as I play Back To Skool, Carrier Command, Death Chase, Turbo Esprit, Elite, Knot in 3D, etc.

Games that appeared on all formats were generally better on the C64 if they were arcade or action games, but get it down to 3D or serious games and the C64 look like a childs toy.

I was wondering when someone would bring up Carrier Command. Speccy owners always played that card. You'd think it was the most important game ever.

Yes, the 64 wasn't a great 3D powerhouse but as 3D was more a novelty than a standard in those days, it really didn't make that much difference.

The 64's sprite handling made a mockery of the shuffling Speccy UDGs...

I'm also not sure what you mean by 'serious games'. There were plenty of 'serious games' on the 64, too.

Even the Sentinel which appear on the C64 first plays better on the Spectrum as it has Sqaure pixels (rather the rectangle ones on the C64), a higher resolution and it moves a lot lot quicker. Yes it's in monochrome but it's still utterly playable.

Well of course, the Spectrum was better at 3D.

Now the C64 is a great machine, but the Spectrum did seem to have more in the way of serious games. I did have both, so you can't accuse me of being a Spectrum fanboy, but I still prefered the Spectrum as the games just felt better and there were a lot more games that required my brain.

Fair enough, but I really don't understand what you mean by 'serious games' at all.

But can I call you a Commodore 64 fanboy of the highest order?

Yes. 8)

[MD]

Did you have a disc drive MD for the C64?

The thing that cost the same, if not more then the C64? Nope..

If not, then you missed most of the "serious" games for the C64.

Lets see what I missed then...

Infocom

Bad start, can't think of any Infocom games (although there may be one or two) that start life on the C64, most were converted from the PC, Apple ][ or even later machines.

I did however play most of the infocom games on either a PC or an Atari 800...

/Level 9/Rainbird adventures

See you research this one well. :P Level 9 started off making games for the Spectrum and every single game they released is on the Spectrum.

SSI strategy games

Except for the games released in the UK, a lot of these games would have set you back ?15 to ?50 each! I hope you not saying you pirated them.

But still we have Lothlorien, PSS, CSS to name but three...

all the RPGs (Interplay, SSI, Mindscape, Origin etc),

Most of which didn't get over to these shores and the ones that did, most got ported to the Spectrum.

Microprose simulations and so on.

The ones that didn't run a 1fps?

Also most of them were American. Worked fine on our machines though as I own a whole slew of them. You can't say the C64 lacked serious games because there are tons of them . Just mainly on disc not tape

And as long as you lived in the States...

Yes there was serious software on the C64 as long as you had a disc drive and access to the US to obtain most of it. Not exactly pop down you local software shop or mail order it for less then ?15 from a mail order place...

Again if you dig down a bit you'll find a lot of the software by these labels did appear on other formats Atari 800, Apple ][, PC generally before it got released on the C64.

[Ady]

Yes there was serious software on the C64 as long as you had a disc drive and access to the US to obtain most of it. Not exactly pop down you local software shop or mail order it for less then ?15 from a mail order place...

Again if you dig down a bit you'll find a lot of the software by these labels did appear on other formats Atari 800, Apple ][, PC generally before it got released on the C64.

But now you're moving the goalposts. First you said there weren't ::any:: 'serious' games for the 64 at all. Now you acknowledge that there were and have shifted the crux of your argument to locality and format origin (something I don't believe was even an issue).

[Mayhem]

Have to agree with Ady here, you said there weren't as many serious games for C64 as Speccy, and then I rattle off a whole line for ya. Doesn't matter if they also came out for the Spectrum. I know that with the Level 9 at least

You'd be surprised just how many of the SSI games made it here fine. True I did source a few straight from the US but a lot of them were through dealers here in the UK. Average price usually about ?15-20. No pirating too heh. And Lothlorien and PSS released many of their games on the C64 too

Let's have a look on the RPG front... it depends how you define "get over to these shores". Whilst some may not have been officially released in a PAL version, the NTSC one was still easy to find to buy from mail order or dealers. Did the Spectrum have versions of:

Bard's Tale 1-3
Dragon Wars
Magic Candle
SSI AD&D series
Buck Rogers RPG
Ultima 1-6
Realms of Darkness
Wizards Crown set
Magic and Magic series
Wizardry series
Roadwars series
Questron 1/2

and those are just off the top of my head trying to think what's in my collection at home...

Project Stealth Fighter is one of the best sims on the C64 and runs a bit faster than 1fps

Silent Service too, a classic from Sid Mieur...

True you needed a drive for most of it, but that's because it was the standard in the US for the C64's life. We were just unique in the UK for having a small drive ownership compared even to Europe. Blame the tape culture and blame Commodore's pricing scheme at times. 1541s were affordable towards the end of the 80s though

As for the releases on other machines, maybe in the early days pre 85, but by then, the C64 was the dominant format in the US and the first place many games came out on...

[Jay]

Spectrum arcade-style games always seem a little shaky to me. As somebody said earlier, C64 games have much more of a solid feel to them. Uridium on the Spectrum is wobbly as hell.

We all know the Spectrum excelled at wireframe graphics (Starstrike was absolutely amazing when it came out) but for the majority of games (read: sprite-based), the C64 pissed all over the Spectrum. Both machines have their classics, and I love them both dearly (and own both now, as I did back then), but I fail to see how anybody can believe that the Spectrum was the better machine. A C64 with a disk drive and a pile of games is absolute heaven. 20 second loaders, solid sprites, hardware scrolling and the superb sounds of the SID chip combined to make the C64 the arcade gamers machine of the choice back in the day. And of course multi-load hell was much less of a problem with a disk drive. As for the competition - the Atari 800 series simply didn't have the range of games to compete.

20 minute loaders on the Spectrum are a fabrication. Most games would load in under five. The C64 was guilty of a few 15+ minute loaders, but turbo tape loading was introduced early in the C64's life (by one Jeff Minter I do believe), so there aren't many of these.

As for Head Over Heels on the GBA - I agree, though you may want to check out Jon Hare and Bernie Drummond's excellent Monster Max on the GB.

Some of my faves on both machines (I don't have a top ten as these change all the time):

Spectrum
--------
Turmoil
Starstrike
Mutant Monty
West Bank
Jetpac

Commodore 64
------------
Dropzone
IK+
Mega Apocalypse
Paradroid
World Class Leaderboard
Thrust
Trailblazer
Kik Start II
Void Runner
Iridis Alpha
Wizball
Summer/Winter/World Games

Jay

[Mayhem]

As for Head Over Heels on the GBA - I agree, though you may want to check out Jon Hare and Bernie Drummond's excellent Monster Max on the GB.

If you can find it... damn lucky to catch the copy I did about 5 years ago in CEX. Damn fine game to boot...