LittleBigPlanet [PS3] - Out Now!

[ezee ryder]

2. The Qu'ran advises to not eat pigs but does say "if one is forced by necessity without willful disobedience nor transgressing due limits then is he guiltless. For Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful." (Surah 2:173) and still respect pigs because they are God's creation. Why then, do pigs have to be hidden for fear of offending Muslims?
For example:
China bans Year of the Pig ads to 'show respect to Muslims'
Dudley Council bans toy pigs for Ramadan

3. At what point should freedom of speech allow you the right to prevent other people from their right to free speech? I whole-heartedly agree that somebody shouldn't be allowed to stand on a soapbox saying sex with children is great, but isn't complaining that the swirl motif on a Burger King ice cream needs banning because it kinda, sorta looks like the Arabic for Allah a bit tenuous (which does more harm than good)?

5. Why do people still bring up the Crusades as a reason to distrust all Christians? It's hardly Current Affairs! Are we still to distrust all Germans because they started two world wars?

In conclusion, I'm not out to offend anybody - note these are all questions, not statements.

I think we need to take the time to at least look at things from the opposite perspective to see perhaps more of an objective view.

Further reading:
Making a pig's ear of defending democracy - Telegrah article
Muslims Win a Ban On Toy Pigs in the UK! SAVE THE DUDLEY PIGS!
Pig Ban - The media is to blame

2. They don't have to be hidden (pigs that is), just cos a certain few muslims complain about pigs doesn't mean all muslims follow the same stupid belief. That would be like saying all muslims are extremists and terrorists.....oh wait that is done already!

3. Your example there is a bit extreme and anyone who did that would just be a complete idiot and doesn't deserve the attention.

5. This one made me laugh a little. Yes, people still go on about Germans and their connections with the World Wars. You just need to look at the many TV shows, films, games etc etc etc. It is a miracle they don't actually find it highly offensive.

BTW, I can't believe this thread has gone from LBP release talk to talk about pigs. Hilarious!

[funkydan]

I've been swinging all weekend

Ah the power of the quote!

[Anpanman]

5. This one made me laugh a little. Yes, people still go on about Germans and their connections with the World Wars. You just need to look at the many TV shows, films, games etc etc etc. It is a miracle they don't actually find it highly offensive.

Aye, but I think with the media at least (BBC for one), the German's of WWII are referred to as Nazi's so creating a distinction between them and citizens of modern day Germany.

Good thing in my opinion.

[Paulos G]

For all you yanks on the forums, seems wall-mart hasn't complied with the recall, and has started selling it. Target stores as well i think.

Wal-mart's website has a release date of 11/11/08 and says it's not available to buy in stores. Target don't have it listed.

BTW, in the US a yank is someone from North of the Mason-Dixie line.

[Ady]

Further reading:
Making a pig's ear of defending democracy - Telegrah article
Muslims Win a Ban On Toy Pigs in the UK! SAVE THE DUDLEY PIGS!
Pig Ban - The media is to blame

Hmm... I wonder if 'War Pigs' by Black Sabbath is offensive?

[Number45]

Looks like the Walmart systems have been updated, so you might not be able to pick one up there if you haven't already.

[Lyris]

3. Your example there is a bit extreme and anyone who did that would just be a complete idiot and doesn't deserve the attention.

Honestly, the example given of someone complaining over a logo or insignia resembling something else, and the real life example of someone complaining over words from a holy book appearing in a game... to me, those aren't too far off one another. OK, so the example is slightly more ridiculous.

[Lyris]

BTW, we've all forgotten this game/religion clash:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/sci_tech/newsid_2440000/2440713.stm

[Brad]

And we'll all forget about this one soon enough.
You can bet your life that some 'hilarious' individual will make a LBP level involving setting the Qu'ran on fire too.

[honeymustard]

Some people were talking about the word "spaz" a couple pages back.. last night I was playing Phoenix Wright 3, and it's in the second case, kinda prominently.

[noobish hat]

that's because it's not offensive to americans, who scripted the translation. Doesn't spaz come from spastic, which in turn came from the spastics society - a uk based charity?

[Brad]

Yes it does.

We're going round in circles now. We've already covered the word Spastic in this very thread.

[Morph]

This is an amazing thread and has made me look into the issue a lot more than I would most news items, which is surely a good thing.

I've still not made my mind up though as I swing from "it's only a game that's only been delayed a week" to "where do we draw the line when trying not to offend people?".

I'm still a bit confused by a few things though, but I'll try to be succinct!

1. If it's offensive for the Qu'ran to be put to music, why wasn't the track complained about in the first place?

2. The Qu'ran advises to not eat pigs but does say "if one is forced by necessity without willful disobedience nor transgressing due limits then is he guiltless. For Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful." (Surah 2:173) and still respect pigs because they are God's creation. Why then, do pigs have to be hidden for fear of offending Muslims?
For example:
China bans Year of the Pig ads to 'show respect to Muslims'
Dudley Council bans toy pigs for Ramadan

3. At what point should freedom of speech allow you the right to prevent other people from their right to free speech? I whole-heartedly agree that somebody shouldn't be allowed to stand on a soapbox saying sex with children is great, but isn't complaining that the swirl motif on a Burger King ice cream needs banning because it kinda, sorta looks like the Arabic for Allah a bit tenuous (which does more harm than good)?

4. If it's a licensed track? Surely Sony can sue the company they bought it off for not fully checking the track out?

5. Why do people still bring up the Crusades as a reason to distrust all Christians? It's hardly Current Affairs! Are we still to distrust all Germans because they started two world wars?

In conclusion, I'm not out to offend anybody - note these are all questions, not statements.

I think we need to take the time to at least look at things from the opposite perspective to see perhaps more of an objective view.

Further reading:
Making a pig's ear of defending democracy - Telegrah article
Muslims Win a Ban On Toy Pigs in the UK! SAVE THE DUDLEY PIGS!
Pig Ban - The media is to blame

The original track should have been complained about given that mixing the Quran with music is not allowed. It is perhaps different if a westerner does this as in not a big deal but then you need to consider the current climate (read on). I'm guessing it went unnoticed as the track came from a relatively unknown artist where as LBP had huge exposure and is a AAA product.

Some Muslims get offended by the presence of pigs but there is nothing in the Quran that says Muslims should not look at pigs nor respect them as animals they can't as they will be judged for any bad treatment of animals. This is what the vast majority of Muslims follow. It will not be possible to judge or understand Islam based on the actions of others but may be possible if you look at a good Muslim except how would a non Muslim know? There are good and bad examples of just about everything in life. For a silly example Jack the Ripper would not be a representative for the people of London. With the toy pig and other silly scenarios it would have been best to consult with the heads of Muslim communities rather than just making changes based on a few petty little complaints.

These days there seem to be more cases of sensitivities and this could be down to the current climate where there is no trust and with all the wars and anti-Islam media campaign where Muslims are generally portrayed as extremists and terrorists it seems that the west is out to get Muslims so sometimes certain individuals make a big deal over perhaps small matters but previous scenarios like the cartoons and muslim massacre in my view were deliberate and deeply offensive and are not examples of making a big deal over nothing.

Sony is a business with the aim of making money they felt that it would not be good to ship their product meant for a world wide audience where it may offend some people and so took the action they felt best if this had been Rockstar they have been fine to release even a highly controversial game, it is just basic business sense here and as has been stated before I've yet to see any real complaints from the Muslim community over the issue. Its a decision that had to be made by Sony & MM they decided to play it safe.

With regards to the really offensive issues freedom of speech is seen as a western idea and is not fully understood in many parts of the world. However I still think that it is healthier for society to communicate and engage dialogue with a more positive approach rather than just ridicule/take the piss out of things that we don't understand. This is not to say that people don't have the right to do this if they so please but rather that their is little or nothing to be gained from doing so aside from the negativity it can create as well as the potential for hate to manifest.

The world is a big place and although there is globalism it is sometimes easy to forget that it does not only consist of western civilisations millions of people have different backgrounds and different histories so its hard to keep every one happy but it would also be foolish to ignore this fact. Bottom line is people will usually go to great lengths to protect and defend all that is important to them this is expected behaviour weather this happens or not is down to how important the issue is to the individual.

In response to your 3rd question action should only be taken if there is some kind of general consensus. This is what petitions were about (aside that everyone seems to ignore them these days). Freedom of speech idealists hate this but the general health and overall well being of society where communities are living side by side to me is more important, everything has some kind boundary for good reason and although this doesn't need to be set in stone. Some expressions of freedom of speech are clearly designed to cause trouble and help in manifesting hate this society can do without, you will never be free to do what ever you want else we would have no laws but we can maximise this freedom as much as is healthy and here is the delicate balancing act. I guess its no secret that I do not agree nor support unconditional freedom of speech and expression since it is already bound to begin with and for very good reason.

But hey this is just my opinion..

[niftyifty]

I am a Muslim and can't see what the fuss is about really I've read the last few pages and there are some worthy arguments - but it simply boils down to this: I've heard the track and it has NOT offended me in the least. In fact I'd go so far as to say it actually enhances the track I also did a bit of research (Google is my best friend)and found out the artist is a devout muslim!

You only need to watch Peace TV or the Islam Channel on Sky to see that the verses from the Quran are sung to a rythmn in nashids (religious songs) and da'wa's (prayers).

It seems slightly OTT of Sony to recall all the copies - I for one would have liked to experience the music in context of the game thereby doing two things:

1. appreciating my religion has a worldwide audience and
2. enjoying what looks to be a 10/10 game

I mean like many people have said - where do you draw the line? I have mixed race children (I'm married to a Lincolnshire lass) and we enjoy Christmas, Ramadan, etc.

Anyways, said my piece hopefully Sony will let us Muslims download the track as an extra after we've passed the relevant security checks and probings LOL

[Dazzyman]

that's because it's not offensive to americans, who scripted the translation. Doesn't spaz come from spastic, which in turn came from the spastics society - a uk based charity?

Spastic comes from the terms spasticity regarding how well the limbs move with SOME of the official terms used to describe cerebral palsy spaz is something abbrivaited from it as a derogatary term. Scopes official name in up to the early 90s was The Spastic society but after so much ridicule of the term spaz/spastic they changed it.

Spastic was basterdised and became spaz meaning a derogatory term from around 1981 basically meaning your either a retard or basically a lower deformed human being who is disabled. If you where around as a kid back then everyone knew the terms spaz and being a joey deacon (a person with cerebral palsy became popularised from telly) and it ended up as this vile term to use against someone disabled. It means your sub human basically who is disabled .

If you where disabled you would understand it aint a term to be used lightly in this country as its had bloody decades of bile attached to it. You really cant get much lower when you call someone a spaz/spastic as it means the same as a retard so best not to use it.

Put it like this if you said it to me Id deck you in your balls (as their the same height as me in my wheelchair) and never speak to you again without blinking and thinking of the concequences. Basically its like using the N word its that bad in the disabled community in the UK.