Kinect (previously Natal)

[Matt]

Add-ons are never a success are they?

I think MS could do a lot worse than either refine this for the neXtBox, assuming it's out in 2011, or re-release the 360 in a small formfactor with this bundled in. Do it for £130, same price as the Arcade now, and if they can produce a reliable version of the 360 which is quiet, they may do quite well.

But Joe Public is very funny, and their fascination with "games" may end with the Wii. They also won't be as forgiving about dodgy hardware as a regular gamer.

That way, MS can market is both ways - addon and a complete system.

I'd have thought putting it off until the next console would be the smarter move though. Nail that console and throw this in the box, it's a huge seller from day 1.

[averybluemonkey]

But that gives the impression that the 360 is behind the times compared with Nintendo. It also goes against their continued assertions that the 360's lifespan will be comparable with a Sony product and after the anger they got from a lot of people with the way they quickly pulled support for the original XBox it could end up turning people against MS the same way the Saturn did for Sega.

If they launch it as an add-on it looks like what it is, a supplementary control scheme, which some people can buy but won't alienate the core fan base. Release it as the main selling point for a new machine and MS effectively hands that demographic over to Sony, many of whom will just see it as another Wii type console and be turned off by it.

[EvilBoris]

That's what they want to do, consoles aren't very profitable for a few years so why be in a rush to make a new one. It's also good because the best visuals come later on

[MonkeyWrench]

Add-ons are never a success are they?

I'd say Wii Fit and all the Guitar Hero/Rock Band peripherals did pretty well.

[baad bwoy]

Showed my fiancee the video from E3 for project natal, and she seemed quite impressed by it.
Generally she has quite a low opinion of the 360 owing to so many of its games being geared toward guys and involving guns etc, and she generally favours the wii...but in showing the video she thinks its very clever, though questioned whether it will really work as well as in the video.

[Matt]

I'd say Wii Fit and all the Guitar Hero/Rock Band peripherals did pretty well.

I was thinking more along the lines of peripherals that fundamentally alter the way the console is approached. Wii Fit is it's own, self contained entity. Likewise, plastic drums/guitars match a game. They're different to this. This is like adding a CD drive to a Megadrive.

I get the impression Natal is more universal, it's a whole new experience for more than one title. MS want it to shift systems (which Wii Fit probably did, not sure about GH/RB).

I don't think anyone could complain is the new XBox appeared in 2 years; you'd have had 6 years lifespan from the original, and who wouldn't want a more reliable, quieter machine. I think until MS sort out the noise issue, it's a hard sell to use it as the hub of all home entertainment.

That's not to say it needs to be a new machine, just a new version that actually works properly. But if they are planning on a whole new machine in 2 years, they could do a lot worse than holding Natal back until then, and really refining the experience.

I'm still in the camp that doesn't think this will move many systems unless MS do an all-in-one package that Joe Public can get on with immediately. They do it right, this may be a gazillion seller. Or it may do nothing. Who knows.

[Matt]

But that gives the impression that the 360 is behind the times compared with Nintendo. It also goes against their continued assertions that the 360's lifespan will be comparable with a Sony product and after the anger they got from a lot of people with the way they quickly pulled support for the original XBox it could end up turning people against MS the same way the Saturn did for Sega.

If they launch it as an add-on it looks like what it is, a supplementary control scheme, which some people can buy but won't alienate the core fan base. Release it as the main selling point for a new machine and MS effectively hands that demographic over to Sony, many of whom will just see it as another Wii type console and be turned off by it.

I don't agree with that. It's perfectly possible for them to appeal to both markets. The thing is, don't disregard your current "core" gamer. Ninty ****ed up, a few token "hardcore" titles while they're sinking a lot of resources into the latest Stroke My Dog Part 6 title.

The two markets can exist together, on one machine. The machine would need to be correctly marketed, and have a good selection of titles to appeal to all audiences from day 1. Say the neXtBox launches with core titles Halo 4, CoD8 (looking much better than on other machines), Forza 4; it also has some casual fitness title, that new Peter M title, a few more. 12 titles at launch, split 7 "core" and 5 "casual".

Throw a general Natal demo selection in to the box (like Wii Sports) and include another disc containing a level of Halo 4 that works great with both a pad and Natal. The casual punters may become interested in Halo 4. Who knows. Worth a go.

No need for a huge leap over the 360 in terms of hardware. Apparently the Natal does the processing itself, which is great. Boost RAM to 2gig, add a modern GPU that can do 1080 with 4xMSAA (so pretty much anything, say an ATi 4770), and bump the 3 CPUs up to 6. You'll have backwards compatibility, and a machine which, depending on the Natal cost (I've no idea) could be sold at ?199, maybe ?249. Those specs, and that price point, may well be what MS will end up doing (hopefully a better GPU); the Natal is the unknown of course.

At the same time, launch the Natal as a ?100 add-on for existing 360s. If they build the neXtBox like the specs above, with the right SDK there's no reason Natal games couldn't work on BOTH systems. Now, wouldn't that be something.

[Akihabara]

Thing is that Natal won't be a new system seller. Gamers will see that as a new Wii, casual gamers already have a Wii for their gaming needs (that one hour every month).

Releasing it as an add-on for let's say 99 euro including a Wii Sports kind of titlde would be a great idea. I don't see the point of releasing a whole new console, and neither does MS.

[averybluemonkey]

I agree that I think the two markets can exist on the same product but my point was I believe this to be a point that is far easier to market with Natal in the form of an add-on rather than a new machine.

[Matt]

You may well be right. I just can't think of an add-on of this nature, which fundamentally alters what the console has to offer, working particularly well.

[JP]

Just announced?

[Ouenben]

Just announced?

DENIED

[MJ]

This and Halo: Reach are currently due to be released around the same time, so I wonder if Reach will utilise this new camera.

[JP]

This and Halo: Reach are currently due to be released around the same time, so I wonder if Reach will utilise this new camera.

Bungie have said that it is something they're looking into for the Reach. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...5_brier29.html

Anyway, I came into this thread after reading this article which I found quite interesting. It does bring up a few points which I've thought about in particular on Project Natal.

I wasn't sure whether to post this here or maybe in the thread about the new Sony tech but as it discusses having no physical controller at all this did seem the most suitable place but it does also cross over to the tech on other platforms.

EDIT:
It wouldn't let me tag the Seattle Times link so I've changed it to a direct link.

[Matt]

Good article about this on Digital Foundry / Eurogamer. Not ideal test environments, but it's as good as we're likely to get right now.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...-natal-article

There's some speculation on the future of Natal. IR facemapping to auto sign-in does sound very flash

They also give a rough go at measuring input latency, obviously a topic I'm interesting it. Guess I'll wait for the usual, "Input latency doesn't exist!" response

I've not seen Natal myself, but the conclusions match up with my thoughts on it - it'll be a lot of fun with some games, but the controller will be better for traditional games.

I can see this cropping up in Rock Band 3, for that kind of game, this would be a blast