GamesTM Issue 114

[Golgo]

Alex WS, brilliantly said. No need to add any more. Now like Pere Ubu I shall f*** off because I want to watch Kieslowski's Red and there better be an 'easy' mode or I'll be well miffed...

[prinnysquad]

I'm gonna sound like an ass now (sorry ); but you're wrong.

Demons Souls has a good (dare I say great?) difficulty level. People who claim it's too hard are all people who gave up before seeing what the game really is, and understanding how it works. I suppose it can be jarring going in to a game like this when one is accustomed to how most other games treat the player. Other games let's you respawn five seconds before you died. Then the player usually simply repeats their previous tactic again and again until - by random chance - the tactic proves successful. The player has not learned anything. The player has not adapted to suit the situation at hand. The players reward in this scenario is superficial and usually takes the form of in-game "experience points" (an artificial substitute for real experience) or some bombastic cutscenes. The reward is purely superficial. But it all happens at such a fast pace that the player gets a sense of progression, no matter how shallow it is.

The rest of your post is fine, but any agreement I find with the bold comment would have to be very qualified; at least in my experience. Regardless of the respawn distance, it's very rare that, upon dying, I try to grind out a success through such a tactic, and rely on fluke, chance, or whatever. For some examples, in Limbo and Braid, on numerous occasions I had really think hard about my responses to challenges, yet their punishments weren't anything even vaguely cutthroat. There are plenty of other games that require rethinks of strategy and gaming behaviour, without the same level of fallout that DS presents. Not that it's a fault - just saying...

[rmoxon]

always thought demon souls was not hard as such it just didnt really give you much info where to go....would very easily wander into the wrong area to early and get killed in seconds i guess that once you have a route through the game its not to bad and the fact i completed the first play through and that was not to frustrating at all

always wished there was more emphasis on upgrading and finding better equip

Yeah, I went through the entire game with the same set of armour I started with on my first playthrough, didnt upgrade weapons much either. Everyone always says you should save the boss souls to make better weapons and spells, but I feel like on the first play through you might as well just use them to level up your character, You dont need a powerful weapon to beat the game.

New Game + is alot harder though of course.

[JSR]

The rest of your post is fine, but any agreement I find with the bold comment would have to be very qualified; at least in my experience. Regardless of the respawn distance, it's very rare that, upon dying, I try to grind out a success through such a tactic, and rely on fluke, chance, or whatever. For some examples, in Limbo and Braid, on numerous occasions I had really think hard about my responses to challenges, yet their punishments weren't anything even vaguely cutthroat. There are plenty of other games that require rethinks of strategy and gaming behaviour, without the same level of fallout that DS presents. Not that it's a fault - just saying...

You are absolutely right: There are plenty of games where my (admittedly bold) statement doesn't apply. But they are getting fewer all the time I feel. Especially if you look within the same genre ballpark as Demons Souls, many games are way too generous with the respawns. And many games have inherent mechanics which allow the player to simply repeat his effort and actually progress. This is most apparent in our shooters, but also in adventure games and some RPGs.

[Daragon]

Yeah, I went through the entire game with the same set of armour I started with on my first playthrough, didnt upgrade weapons much either. Everyone always says you should save the boss souls to make better weapons and spells, but I feel like on the first play through you might as well just use them to level up your character, You dont need a powerful weapon to beat the game.

New Game + is alot harder though of course.

How the devil is that the case? Most new game + modes are meant to be easier as your gear and levels carry over. What does this game do? Take everything away and give everything else another 50 levels or so for good measure? Or does it sever your arms and legs and you have to roll into everything and kill it all in the space of the half second you usually have before your brains seep through your nose?

[rmoxon]

How the devil is that the case? Most new game + modes are meant to be easier as your gear and levels carry over. What does this game do? Take everything away and give everything else another 50 levels or so for good measure? Or does it sever your arms and legs and you have to roll into everything and kill it all in the space of the half second you usually have before your brains seep through your nose?

For New Game Plus enemies are alot tougher, I mean alot. The difficulty in Demon's souls has deffinitley been blown out of proportion, its not that hard really, but the game actualy IS hard in New Game Plus.

It is basicaly the equivilant of a hard mode.

[Guts]

How the devil is that the case? Most new game + modes are meant to be easier as your gear and levels carry over.

You answered your own question. Where does it say that all games have to do this? Why would I play a game again at an easier difficulty level, what would be the point in that?

[Daragon]

You answered your own question. Where does it say that all games have to do this? Why would I play a game again at an easier difficulty level, what would be the point in that?

Not really sure on that one myself tbh, NG+ tends to be a staple of RPGs though - they either add content and/or all equipment, levels and abilities carry over.

[Flabio]

A lot of you are now getting dangerously close to the classic 'I like it, and therefore anyone who doesn't is wrong' point of view.

[rmoxon]

Not really sure on that one myself tbh, NG+ tends to be a staple of RPGs though - they either add content and/or all equipment, levels and abilities carry over.

In Demon's Souls everything carries over, NG+ is the only way to get every item in the game becuase there are multiple items that can be made from the souls of Bosses.

I would imagine they made NG+ harder becuase you would be too overpowered if they didnt and it wouldnt be much fun.

This explains how it works....

http://demonssouls.wikidot.com/newgame-plus

[Lebowski]

I'm gonna sound like an ass now (sorry ); but you're wrong.

Demons Souls has a good (dare I say great?) difficulty level. People who claim it's too hard are all people who gave up before seeing what the game really is, and understanding how it works. I suppose it can be jarring going in to a game like this when one is accustomed to how most other games treat the player. Other games let's you respawn five seconds before you died. Then the player usually simply repeats their previous tactic again and again until - by random chance - the tactic proves successful. The player has not learned anything. The player has not adapted to suit the situation at hand. The players reward in this scenario is superficial and usually takes the form of in-game "experience points" (an artificial substitute for real experience) or some bombastic cutscenes. The reward is purely superficial. But it all happens at such a fast pace that the player gets a sense of progression, no matter how shallow it is.

Demons Souls presents you with many unique challenges throughout its course. Rarely can one apply the same approach again with success. Therefore death is often the result. But with every death, there is a chance to learn. Every futile attempt grants the player new information. If one is capable of learning (sadly many of todays gamers are indoctrinated not to) from the game, one will adapt to the situation. No situations can be called cheap or unfair. If one fails to see one of the many ways to overcome the obstacle, there is always the option of simply leveling up your character. In that way the difficulty is actually progressive. Seeing as death usually means a small amount of retreading (a penalty of failure that modern games lack), the player is encouraged to take each encounter seriously. Instead of rushing in blindly hoping that the auto-aim and regenerating health will save the day, the player learns to play methodically. There is actually something at stake here, which makes the whole experience more engrossing, and the reward that much more real. Seeing as games differ from movies by being interactive, I would like my games to actually require some activity not only from my fingers, but also from my brain.

This is in many ways how games where before. Back when boss encounters actually was something tense and exciting. Back when completing a game gave a real sense of achievement. Back when we didn't need on-screen medals to motivate us to continue playing. This is some of the reason why I consider Demons Souls to be the most important game of this generation. Because it reminds us of how rewarding games can - and should - be.

Some interesting points I don't agree with your spoon fed comments I've completed games that were classed as hard in the past and gained massive enjoyment from them.

I think one comenter hit the nail on the head as to why my progress was barred, I didn't know which way to go! wandered round the wrong corner and was skewred by a guy with a big pole who killed me in one hit, I don't mind hard games but punishing me for exploring **** that.

Take Devil may cry as an example it rewarded you for showing skill made you learn the combs and skills required to beat the game and never once kicked you in the crotch and made you replay hours worth of game just for poking your nose in the wrong corner.

[rmoxon]

How could you not know where to go? most of the levels in Demon's souls were pretty linear and even the ones that wernt were usualy structured in a way that you would eventualy find your way to a boss, it is nearly impossible to get lost in it.

There are obviously enemies that you might not be able to kill when you first meet them, but whenever you die it never takes very long to get back to where you were anyway, so I dont see what the big deal is.

No way do you ever have to "replay hours", you usualy have to replay about 10 minutes at the most.

[dataDave]

All games should be human vs. human. Or require thinking like this game.

[noobish hat]

I know some of my most thought provoking gaming moments have been against some cock on xbox live calling me a fag.

[rmoxon]

Human vs human gaming is flawed. Humans will always work out ways to exploit any game which gives them possible advantage over other humans, people are never on exactly the same playing field.

A game like demons souls is what gaming has been about since it began, you are tasked with beating a set oposition.

Personally thats what I love.