Gender Inequality in Vid Games industry

[Golgo]

The response is indeed disgraceful and indefensible but there will probably always be bigots and lunatics in the gutter reaches of the internet. Perhaps if she wasn't so selective, though, and actually set out to build a balanced case, she wouldn't get quite so much of it. It's noteworthy that she is trying to build a reputation on this topic in the relatively unpopulated field of videogame scholarship. If she used a similary selective approach to discuss the objectification of women in paintings or film or literature or popular culture more broadly she'd have a seriously hard time from long-established, and much more rigorous, (female) scholars. That said, I would be very interested to know if the incidences of sexual exploitation in videogames are disproportionately more numerous than in other fields, like pop videos for example, which would let us know if games have a 'special' problem. But I doubt this is a topic she'd be willing or able to tackle.

[BigDeadFreak]

As others have touched upon, it does amaze me how years of shooting, stabbing, punching, kicking, incinerating, disembowelling, beheading, torturing, running over and generally brutalising men in video games is overlooked when a woman wears a bikini (Dead or Alive) or gets laughed at (GTA5).

[noobish hat]

I think it's probably because there is not a culture of murdering men without a second thought, but there is a culture of objectifying women. That's probably the difference they have in mind.

[Guts]

I think it's probably because there is not a culture of murdering men without a second thought, but there is a culture of objectifying women. That's probably the difference they have in mind.

You're kidding right?

How many men are currently forcibly waging wars and getting killed/tortured against their will all over the world today? Young boys are forced to be child soldiers in third world countries. How many men get beaten up on a Saturday night compared to women? Male suicide rates are also massive compared to females.

But yeah, some pixelated tits are the real atrocity here.

I also think it's funny that she is targeting video games where the problem is totally insignificant compared to say everyday advertising, music videos, movies etc. but like Golgo said, she probably doesn't have the qualifications to do this in a field where there are actual professionals researching the subject, so instead she's making these superficial and one-sided YouTube videos for $150K. But got to give it to her, she knows how to make money from the suckers.

[BigDeadFreak]

I think it's probably because there is not a culture of murdering men without a second thought, but there is a culture of objectifying women. That's probably the difference they have in mind.

I think that is a pretty crazy thing to say. How many men are beaten to death or shot by the police compared with women? State sponsored murder of black, working class men is quite a big problem in many western countries.

EDIT:
A bit of Googling shows that, according to FBI figures, in the US in 2012 there were 426 felons killed by the police; 11 were women.
Also, since 1976* 1099 people have been executed under the death penalty in the US. Coincidentally, 11 of them have been women.
*the death penalty was suspended from 1972 to 1976

[noobish hat]

Right, but that's not because they're men is it. Their sex/gender is irrelevant to all the killing and torturing which I'm sure you see on a daily basis.

[Dogg Thang]

Normal people going about their everyday lives don't force men to wage wars, kill or torture or even approve of those things without realising they are doing it. You're pulling out the extreme examples. And yet normal people do objectify women without realising they are doing it because it is so normal in our culture, including games.

[Guts]

Normal people going about their everyday lives don't force men to wage wars, kill or torture or even approve of those things without realising they are doing it. You're pulling out the extreme examples.

No more than Ms. Sarkeesian. Normal men don't beat or rape their partner, because they saw a computer character do something in Red Dead Redemption, even though people like Anita Sarkeesian claim that they do.

[Neon Ignition]

I think that's why the attempts of anti-objectification feminists fail so often, they focus on the wrong targets by classing objectification itself as an evil as a whole. The crux is that it's a fact of life human trait from both sides (but men are more willing to spend money on it regularly) and they can't wish it away. There's a reason sex sells, it's those reasons that will ensure it always emerges victorious against feminist campaigners.

Not enough games with female leads? Bias against women
Making games with female leads who are attractive? Bias against women
Make a game with an ugly female lead? Probably bias and offensive to women.

Like has been said, the 'stop it now' argument given rarely includes a clear message on what's wanted as an alternative.

[Dogg Thang]

The fact that so many have a hard time getting it is indicative of the problem. Even in the last couple of pages, we covered a woman getting rape and death threats. The reaction? She's a liar. Threats are indefensible but maybe if she behaved better this wouldn't happen. Blaming the victim. It's like The Accused in game troll form and you can't see it. It's there and you're completely blind to it. That's precisely the problem that people are attempting to address.

I saw a tweet I liked the other day - "Sexism deniers is like telling me that I DON’T have a lethal peanut allergy on account of them being able to eat peanut butter all the time".

[Golgo]

I think you're collapsing two things together, Dogg. No one here has characterized the threats as anything other than utterly repugnant, not has said that she deserved to receive them. The fact that she's intellectually quite dishonest is - for me at least - a separate matter. I never said she should "behave better" but simply that she should try to set out a better case because right now she's just baiting trolls, perhaps knowingly, and what do you know she's successfully stirred a tiny minority of them up as well as a whole lot of publicity for films which on their own merit barely stand up. The topic is interesting and important but it deserves more intelligent treatment, as well as contextualizing within wider trends of representation in popular culture. If you are going to infer that all male videogamers are uniquely distinguished as w*****s and deviants who can't obtain sexual gratification through any other means, the more juvenile of them are going to respond badly.

[Guts]

I think you're collapsing two things together, Dogg. No one here has characterized the threats as anything other than utterly repugnant, not has said that she deserved to receive them. The fact that she's intellectually quite dishonest is - for me at least - a separate matter. I never said she should "behave better" but simply that she should try to set out a better case because right now she's just baiting trolls, perhaps knowingly, and what do you know she's successfully stirred a tiny minority of them up as well as a whole lot of publicity for films which on their own merit barely stand up. The topic is interesting and important but it deserves more intelligent treatment, as well as contextualizing within wider trends of representation in popular culture. If you are going to infer that all male videogamers are uniquely distinguished as w******s and deviants who can't obtain sexual gratification through any other means, the more juvenile of them are going to respond badly.

Well put.

[Dogg Thang]

"She's just baiting trolls" is victim blaming. I'm not saying you mean it maliciously in any way and I don't believe you do knowing you from the boards but victim blaming is absolutely what it is. As for the wider context, this issue is of course not unique to gaming and something like Miss Representation is a good watch on that wider subject. But for some reason (and this isn't just attached to sexism at all) gamers online seem to have a frightening vitriol and tendency for violent comments. The Daily Mail should really pick up on that one.

[EvilBoris]

oh man. This thread.

In other news Anita Sarkeesian has had to leave her home as she's had some terrifying threats.

[Golgo]

If this is indeed a problem that is unusually pronounced in the gaming community then you're right, Dogg, it's embarrassing and needs dealing with. I don't follow other types of forums, though. How did music forums respond when Sinead O' Connor sent her open letter to Miley Cyrus for being a slag in that video? Actually, who cares.