What pc games should I be playing?

[Matt]

Yep, choose your card, then make sure there's space inside. You really may be ok with your current PSU if you get a 8800 or 4850, go to www.overclockers.co.uk and do a bit of research in the forum - they're NOT the cheapest place to buy from. I checked earlier, and the 8800GTS512 is more than the ATI 4850 right now, which is daft. I know the 9800 will be dropped to the 4850 price, so the 8800GTS512 should be £20 or £30 less than that - guess it may take a little time to get there though, another month max.

Of those PSUs, both are good brands so will do fine. Both have 2 6pin PCIexpress plugs, so any card will be sorted.

What card are you thinking of right now?

[tom-nook]

Hadn't thought about the size....not something that seems to get quoted much in the specs but it is kind of important!! Will have to check my current card to see how much room there is to play with.

Depending on how much dosh I can raise from my PS3 (& space permitting) the 4850 seems to be a good choice. There's also a 1gb version @ approx. £160 for pre-order on OCUK which would perhaps be sensible if I want to run at higher resolutions. However, if the 8800GTS is likely to drop in the next couple of months then that might come into consideration too!!

That's good news about the PSU. I've had a squint in the case and it looks like I can get it out without too much hassle. I'm thinking of doing the upgrade sooner rather than later so that I can spread the cost of upgrading and can just add the card ad & when I'm ready.

Thanks again for all the info guys. Over the last 24hrs or so I've gone from knowing absolutely nothing about cards & psu's to being in the position where I can start making semi-informed decisions!!!

[Matt]

Running at high res isn't just about how much RAM you have, it's very much bandwidth dependent. The 4850 and 4870 only have a 256 bus, look out for some models of the 4870 which will have DDR5 (rather than DDR3) - that has insane bandwidth, around equal to a 512 bus.. I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think you really need both bandwidth and 1 gig to get the most out of your res.

You know yet another option? Look out for second hand 8800GTXs (maybe even the Ultra). They have a 384 bus and 800 some RAM. They have been THE best cards for 18 months. Amazing. The later 8800GTS512 was about on a par at most resolutions as that had a better GPU, but I think with your res the bigger bus and larger RAM would be the biggest boost.

Look, a 512mb card will be great, games will look much better than the consoles can handle, and you'll have a great time. It's just if it was me, and I was looking at spending say £160 on a 1 gig 4850, I'd either go for a second hand 8800GTX (maybe £100 if you look around and have a bit of patience, maybe £120) or, even better, a 4870 with 1gig DDR5. If you had a lower res monitor, I'd not bother, but I think you'll see games reaching the memory/bandwidth limit at such a high res.

[Matt]

Just came across this:

I did some measurements Yesterday..
Intel Quad @3.2 ghz 2 sticks memory 1 sata drive 1 optical drive and floppy with 1 Hd4850 windows xp
Desktop 100watts Full 3D 180watts
2 X hd4850 in crossfire
Desktop 146watts full 3D 260watts.....with very occasional 302Watt transients

A quality 400w psu or 600w for crossfire will have power in hand

Looks like you'd be about OK with your 300w assuming Dell didn't give you a POS brand.

[tom-nook]

Running at high res isn't just about how much RAM you have, it's very much bandwidth dependent. The 4850 and 4870 only have a 256 bus, look out for some models of the 4870 which will have DDR5 (rather than DDR3) - that has insane bandwidth, around equal to a 512 bus.. I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think you really need both bandwidth and 1 gig to get the most out of your res.

You know yet another option? Look out for second hand 8800GTXs (maybe even the Ultra). They have a 384 bus and 800 some RAM. They have been THE best cards for 18 months. Amazing. The later 8800GTS512 was about on a par at most resolutions as that had a better GPU, but I think with your res the bigger bus and larger RAM would be the biggest boost.

Look, a 512mb card will be great, games will look much better than the consoles can handle, and you'll have a great time. It's just if it was me, and I was looking at spending say £160 on a 1 gig 4850, I'd either go for a second hand 8800GTX (maybe £100 if you look around and have a bit of patience, maybe £120) or, even better, a 4870 with 1gig DDR5. If you had a lower res monitor, I'd not bother, but I think you'll see games reaching the memory/bandwidth limit at such a high res.

Ok, thanks for keeping me right

The GTS & GTX cards both seem to take up two PCI slots worth of space. I'm not sure if this is an issue (or if it is a common layout on most boards) but in the space next to where my current card sits, there are connectors on the motherboard which have cables running from the hdd's. The cables kind of stick upwards from the board and I think this would physically prevent a wider card from sitting there.....is there a way round this or does it basically mean I'm limited to a single slot's width card? can post pics later if I'm being a bit unclear...

Also is a new card going to run a lot hotter than my Radeon 2600 and do I need to be thinking about doing something with the existing fan?

Last questions I promise!!!

Cheers,
Mark

[Matt]

Post pics. I know the problem, the SATA leads plug in and block a 2 space card, I have the same "issue" - it's bollocks mobo design. On a 7900 I had, I unscrewed the fan cover (keeping on the fan obviously) and the 2-slot card fitted OK then. With my current 2 slot 8800GTS512, I bought 2 low profile SATA cables which solved the issue, although the card still pushes against them very hard.

1 slot design won't be the end of the world - as you say, a cheap 8800GT (make sure it's the G92 GPU, I'm not sure all 8800GT are) or a nice new 4850 will be awesome.

[tom-nook]

I'll try & take some pics tomorrow and post 'em up. Low profile cables could be the answer.

I read a review of the 4850 and have pretty much ruled it out. Despite being a low powered card it supposedly pumps out silly amounts of heat (much more than the 3870 & Geforce GTS or X). Idling I think it was something like 70 degrees and 90 under load....the 8800GT looks a better bet if I go 1 slot.

Either way I think one of the SATA cables will need replacing as it's very short. It runs around the end of the card (just) and I think the 8800GT may well have a longer pcb meaning it wouldn't reach the hdd.

[Matt]

I wouldn't worry too much about the 4850s heat. They've built it knowing the heat, and it'll be within tolerances. You can buy several after market coolers for around £15 that can half the temperature - if I had one, that's what I'd do as I only have a small HTPC case so heat dissipaton is important.

I think the 8800gt will end up really low priced soon, nVidia have to drop the price as the 4850 is better.

Definitely think things over a bit more before making your mind up, and check the 8800gt power requirements.

At this stage, I'd still be looking at the 4850 as the best 1 slot solution given a reasonable budget. The best would be a 4870 1gig DDR5, but that will be twice the price, if not more - but still, it's 2 slot.

ALL cards we've discussed are very, very good and will give you an amazing gaming experience.

[tom-nook]

Right here are a couple of pics:

http://usera.imagecave.com/tom-nook/PC/

The 1st one shows the problem quite well (bit of a squeeze to get the camera in!!).

The 2nd is just to give you a general view of the case layout in case it helps (you can just about see the blue sata cable 'squeezing' round the back of the card to the hdd). It doesn't look it in the pic but there is approx. another slots' worth of space between the card and the 2 visible pci slots.

[Matt]

Much more of this tech support and I'll be sending you an invoice

Right, see where the single red SATA cables plugs in the mobo. There is at least one spare SATA port there, the black socket below the white one the red cable is plugged in to. Move the lower blue SATA cable from the blue SATA port to this black port. That's made life easier already.

Now, about the red SATA cable, it's difficult to see, there may be another white SATA port. If so great, plug the other SATA cable in to that. I don't think there is one, but the photo shows something white which may be one.

If not you'll need something like this:

http://www.cooldrives.com/ullowpr30sai.html

That SHOULD do, but a dual slot card will still push down quite on it. I have two similar cables under my 8800 so it does work. It's not ideal I know.

Two more points - how long is your current GFXcard? As it's really close to the second HDD. New card may be longer - I think a 4870 is 23.5cm long, not sure. Look up on Overclockers If your planned card is too long, don't panic, the lower HDD can be moved. There may be a space beneath the other HDD, if not you can get a mount and put it in the spare 5 1/4" bay (the spare CD drive slot).

Lastly, all modern cards need at least one 6-pin power plug from the PSU. Do you have one? Should be black. If not, you need 2 spare 4-pin plugs (they are about an inch wide and the same as the ones powering your HDDs). The card will come with a 2*4pin -> 6pin adaptor.

[Hohum]

Your safest bet would be to look at getting a single slot 4850 card by the looks of it, although you still need to see how much room you have in your case in terms of length.

[tom-nook]

Much more of this tech support and I'll be sending you an invoice

Yeah I know....it's turning into a bit of a saga. I reckon I must owe you several pints by now!!!

That's good news about being able to move the SATA cable. There is only one white port so I'll need to pick up one of the low profile leads for the other hdd.

The current card is approx. 9 inches long, but assuming the cards are all much the same height I don't think it should be an issue. It doesn't really show in the pics but the hdd's are actually about 1-1.5cm higher than the card. There is plenty of empty space underneath them (approx. 4-5 inches) for a longer card to slot in. The PSU doesn't have a 6 pin power plug but am planning on upgrading it to something around the 500w mark. The one I'm looking at has one.

As it looks like 2 slots are useable does this GTS look a good bet if I can get it around the £100 mark?:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190232570168&indexURL=2&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

Would the card's 'onboard' cooling be sufficient or would anything else be needed in addition?

Thanks again to both you & Hohum!

[Hohum]

Yeah, would be alright. The cooler won't need replacing as it's a half decent effort.

[tom-nook]

Yeah, would be alright. The cooler won't need replacing as it's a half decent effort.

Cool (no pun intended) - thanks!!

[Matt]

All are built with the same reference coolers, so all are the same

GTS fan is noticeably better than the GT.