New telly's here

[Lyris]

Agree totally. The source of info back then was magazines.

[Lyris]

Thought I'd thread-hijack and post some pictures of my nice new dirt-cheap Plasma as well (TX-P42S20B). This is just the "True Cinema" (accurate) picture mode. No service menu greyscale calibration done yet, because it's pretty damn accurate already. But I turned the Sharpness off, turned off 16:9 Overscan, and turned off the goofy sped-up motion thing (24p Playback Plus or something).

Some moderately un-crummy SD first of all:


Some BD. "Plasmas are not as sharp as LCD/LED LCD TVs" - oh noooo, of cooooourse not, if only that wasn't a total lie





An NTSC DVD (one of mine):


And lastly, measuring black level with the Klein K10 probe.... which you can't see thanks to the blackness. Doh! Klein K10 says the blacks are 0.02 cd/m2 - that's pretty damn black! For comparison, the Pioneer Kuro PDP-LX5090 could go down to a ridiculously good 0.0031 cd/m2 and Sony's LCDs are about 0.06cd/m2.


And just for fun, off-axis viewing comparison with a top-of-the-range "LED" LCD that's with me while firmware updates are ongoing. Both TVs are showing a black screen.

http://www.lyris-lite.net/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/MG_1265.jpg

[bash]

Jeeeeez, that LCD has practically no comparable black level at all, and its meant to be top of the range, what a joke.

If Dixons/Currys had a forum I'd recommended you post that pic there to shut those nutters up who think that LED back lighting has somehow made LCDs catch up with Plasmas.

[dvdx2]

My LED lcd has a quality black level when calibrated; granted its probably not as black as a plasma in a totally dark room, but i use a touch of ambient lighting behind the set (the rest of the room is totally dark) and the black level is as black as the tv bezel.

Has that 'top end LED set' been properly calibrated, even with something like DVE? The screen looks gray/blue? and what setting is the backlight on?

Monsters inc is one beautifully encoded disc - and looks amazing on pretty much anything that outputs an HD signal - very nice on your set

[MetalJoe]

The TX-P42S20B looks ace. I'm very tempted!

Have you had any problems with the screen being overly reflective or anything Lyris?

[Lyris]

The S20s don't have any ambient light filter (or if they do, it's not a very good one), so if the sun is coming in here during the day, the blacks take a hit and yeah, there's some reflections on screen. It's OK for me since I do most of my viewing later on but it could be a big issue for some people.

Has that 'top end LED set' been properly calibrated, even with something like DVE? The screen looks gray/blue? and what setting is the backlight on?

Yes it has, I gave it a full ISF Calibration with 10-point Greyscale correction; full 3D colour management, the works. Samsung's TVs have brilliant calibration controls so I always use them. I calibrated it the first day it got here and I've been helping fix bugs in the firmware; the revised versions have wiped the settings, so I've ended up doing it many times!

For Backlight setting: I calibrate light output so that peak white is about 120 cd/m2, in line with SMPTE standards. (For home users, that's not really required; the reason we do it is so the black level measurements we do at HDTVtest are consistent and comparable across reviews). 120cd/m2 is actually comparatively low and isn't suited to sun-filled rooms. So anyway, yes, the Backlight is down fairly low. It's funny because face-on, the LCD looks just about as good as the cheap Plasma in the picture, but things fall apart from the sides. You're totally right, it looks purple-tinged. As usual, seeing things in a photo does have more of a powerful effect, though.

The current Samsung LED LCDs have tricked some reviewers because of the auto-dimming. In other words, when they get a fully dark screen, they just shut their LED lights off and create complete, total black, leading to a few sources saying "the blacks on my Samsung LED are better than the Pioneer Kuro" - which is correct, until the TV gets faced with some actual video material. For example, a dark space scene with little stars in it; the stars become greyish and less visible because the TV is trying to conceal the black level limitations and cutting the overall light output. The difference with Plasma is that you can get deep blacks and bright whites on screen at the same time, which is what you need for that "oomph".

Samsung's better LCD-based TVs are using their own SPVA panels which have black level that's excellent for LCD. I measured some of their mid-range and even cheap LCDs as measuring about 0.03 - 0.06 cd/m2, compared to Panasonic's mid-range Plasmas having 0.02 cd/m2. The only problem here is that those measurements are taken with the measuring device sitting flat against the screen, and on LCD, the viewer has to be sitting face-on to get the same black quality. If we were to measure from the sides to take the viewing angle falloff into account, the figures would be nowhere near as good.

Anyway, measurements and figures or not, placing the two side-by-side was a real eye-opener. Viewing angle fall-off is still a very real issue.

[Soundwave]

looking good Lyris

Really envy your skills & job...would love to do what you do.

I actually considered that model but decided that as I had the cash I might as well go the whole hog & got the G20

Anywho after a DVE Calibration the G20 is definitely a bit tidier but maybe next year I'll have saved enough to get the full ISF done on it (Should have my new Amp & speakers by then as well so will get everything done at once)

Neil

[dvdx2]

Lyris,

what is that 'top of the range' LED lcd?

[Lyris]

Samsung UE46C8000.
OK, technically the 9000 is the most expensive one, but it's largely the same.

[Decider-VT]

Another good reason to stay away from Samsung. Never understood why people have made a fuss about their screens.

That Panasonic plasma looks lovely. I saw the VT20 in John Lewis the other day and it looked absolutely gorgeous but all of this talk about poor 50Hz performance is worrying.

[Lyris]

Samsung do make some nice stuff - their TVs improved a hell of a lot in a little space of time. Their 2005-ish displays really weren't a lot to talk about but they solved the biggest issues and honestly, they have some of the best LCDs around. The trouble is that those "best LCDs around" right now are the mid-range CCFL-backlit TVs.

If they want to make TVs thinner, fair enough - but the thickness of flat panel TVs is honestly one of the last things I could find wrong with them. Their slim TVs have been an overall backwards step in terms of quality, yet they sell for a premium price and have been sold to the public as "LED TVs" which is misleading to say the least.

[Lyris]

I cracked and sent my S20 back to get a G20 instead. Image quality isn't an issue, but I decided to upgrade to gain the Freesat tuner.

That way, I can soak up NHK World instead of BBC News 24 when I'm doing the graveyard shift. I need a satellite tuner for a break from all the British, British, British...

[Soundwave]

I cracked and sent my S20 back to get a G20 instead. Image quality isn't an issue, but I decided to upgrade to gain the Freesat tuner.

That way, I can soak up NHK World instead of BBC News 24 when I'm doing the graveyard shift. I need a satellite tuner for a break from all the British, British, British...

Wooo hooo welcome to the club

The freesat Tuner is great, loving the HD stuffs (until I get Sky HD later this month anyway)
Not sure if you can get it your end Lyris but don't forget the G20 has a Freeview HD tuner built in as well (cant get Freeview HD till 2012 where I lives according to the website...my parents can get it now though...2 roads down from where I live...go figure )

Ooooh just thinking when you get the ISF done on it you dont fancy PM'ing me your settings do you & I'll buy you a few beers when I'm visiting my bro in Glasgow lol

Neil

[Lyris]

Actually I think where I am (just outside Glasgow) was one of the first places in the UK to get Freeview HD; nice surprise back in March when I checked out the G20 review sample. The S20 also has Freeview HD.

You realise I am an ISF Calibrator myself, right
I'd gladly give you settings, but there's no point in copying the White Balance and Colour Management settings from TV to TV because they need to be set individually to take the tolerances of each panel into account. So if you use the THX or Professional1/Professional2 modes, those will give you the best result you can get without calibration.

[Lyris]

G20's here - ah, a thing of beauty.

This is absolutely worth the £200 premium over the S20 for the extra flexibility. I wasn't sure if it was before, but having them here within 1 day of each other has been an eye opener. The screen coating on the G20 allows it to look much better during daylight viewing. It really is amazing how the mild gloss coating seems to improve the perceived clarity of the picture, even although the resolved detail is the same. I guess it's the combined effect of improved contrast + slight gloss.

I know it's not perfect, but the entire thing honestly feels like a TV that should cost twice this money. £750, good grief

My only concern is the gloss black finish. I hope it still looks sleek in a few years.