Final Fantasy XI Then...

[Darwock]

I've always logged on at exactly the scheduled time and I've never been the only one there when I do, so it's a bit unfair to accuse everyone of being late all the time.

[Tobal]

well the fact is nearly everyone is late to this meetings from week to week, so saying otherwise is a complete and utter lie. the reason promey broke down for us is the fact these '10pm starts' never EVER start at 10 and it not us whos late its the people that want the times at 10pm. FACT.

[Darwock]

There's only been one 10pm event which you were actually involved in Tobal, and that was the first re-attempt at Dem following the 2nd parties failure.

I wanted a 10pm start and I was there at 9:55. So did Vanicent and yeah, he got stuck in San d'Oria but LS events have surely got to be about compromise. If you guys always take such a self-centred approach to it then no wonder you get so pissed off.

Likewise with the comment about the people who get aggro annoying you. Bit of a holier-than-thou statement I feel.

[Tobal]

Sorry i believe its been 3 10pm starts, 2 dems and 1 holla, all started well after the so called 10pm start.

As for the self-centred comment, why should 4-5 people on sunday night have to start 10pm when we have the rest of the week, heck we even suggest moving it to monday, but you being the selfish fool you are went ahead with out telling us on sunday anyway.

And whats this agro **** your on about, its a fact that during this missions agro gained on 3/4 floors by fellow LS members or random outsiders leads to death, the death of other people like Mih and I provoking the mob while you peg it, instead of running to a safe place and dying to be raised again, saving the group.

[Darwock]

1st Dem was 9pm from my recollection? You've never been to any of the Holla attempts I've been on so I can't comment on whether you chose to start at 10pm for those or not.

Regarding the time we went on Sunday *as per the original plan*.. on the Saturday was when you & Mihki decided to move it to Monday (which you described as a majority decision, lol) - as I already knew my friends wouldn't be able to make it I pointed this out and was told to "deal with it" and then subsequently ignored.

On the sunday Hicory & Tsingtao told me they couldn't go on Monday so were trying to follow the original plan of going that night.. I agreed to go as I didn't like the way you guys had knowingly excluded people, and would rather do it with my friends to be honest. Also I think you'll find they did notify the LS members who were on at the time. Which is at least as much as you did when you decided to move it to Monday in the 1st place.

So yeah, selfish fool I am, agreeing to help people who had been snubbed by their LS

The aggro **** I'm referring to is that Mihki himself has been the person who has picked it up so he has no right saying other people 'annoy' him.. it happens, it's part of the game and if you're going to turn it into a finger pointing exercise every time then frankly I'm glad you've given up on Promy. It's more fun without all of that.

[Tobal]

[QUOTE]

So yeah, selfish fool I am, agreeing to help people who had been snubbed by their LS
QUOTE]

Just like when we ask you to come help in ENM, you chickened out, quoting some total crap, and any other time people have asked for help when you can't 'get something out of it'

i'll change that quite of yours to how you really meant it.

[QUOTE]

So yeah, selfish fool I am, agreeing to help myself and by accident others who had been 'in my opinion' snubbed by their LS
QUOTE]

And as for the 1st dem, it certainly never started at 9pm did it. As for the Holla sunday, we made loads of suggestions which you rubbished, as you seem to think that dumping 4 LS members who can't do sunday past 10pm every week for 1 LS member that can't start before 10pm balances out making you look like some kind of hero, we suggested monday unknowning at the time that TSing/Hic couldn't make it and you just went ahead anyway with out leaving anykind of message to those excluded.

[Darwock]

Yeah I actually didn't go on the ENM because you started bad-mouthing the party that helped you to victory on the first DEM run. From the way you talked it was like you won it yourself and everyone else was just there making it difficult for you. Plus the fact a level 13 white mage with a lot of MP simply wouldn't cut it as main healer, and I stand by that.

And for the 2nd time I had nothing to do with organising the Holla sunday, I just agreed to go.

Also as I said at the time, it made no difference to me going on Sunday as I could have made Monday easily... but following that 'discussion' (where you didn't make any suggestions at all beyond 'deal with it') I chose not to. So I'm afraid it wasn't to suit my own ends.

[Tobal]

I'm sorry, what bad mouthing was this? I certainly for the life me don't recall this made up LIE by you. Please quote anything that suggested that, because you seems to have gotten you wires cross like you do all the time, the ONLY conversation with you, was with bad mouthing Mal's abilities as lvl 27 smn/13 whm and her trying to convince you that she could keep you healed, but you would have none of it. And being that ENM boss battle cost ZERO exp if you die you still wouldn't come.

I'm sorry you seemed to have given me the impression in your earlier posts that you QUITE CLEARLY made out that you made this Holla sunday knowing full well that 4 members couldn't make it, and you seemed to quite happy cut 4ls members to suit your own needs, specially when 4 of us didn't know about some people not being able to make monday, it could have been changed (which its was, we waited till the following tues/weds with no help from the LS)

[Darwock]

Hrmm.. it went along the lines of how only crap players get aggro, the first battle was a real struggle but would be easier with a decent team, that kind of thing. It was enough to make me think twice about going, anyway. It wasn't a conversation you had with me, I was just reading what you were saying.

I wasn't gonna go into Promyvion without Raise. It's stupid. People get aggro, and with one party that means people die. Whether you think that means they are crap players or not, I don't care frankly.

[talizker]

Can I just restate that the next Holla run that I am aware of is planned for tomorrow at the hopefully more managable time of 9pm (ish). I know the only people confirmed are myself, Tsing, Hic and Darwock but both Tsing and I have said it would be great if this could be a full run with as many LS people that want to come, but so far there has not been any yes/no's from anyone else.

Also as Tsing said, if this time is not good with anyone we are happy to redo them with any LS members that want it.

We do need to be realistic about what jobs we can take on these runs (especially Holla). Having 3 failures in 4 runs with RDM I accepted that it is not a job that can fully contribute to sucess, hence the leveling of BLM for the next run.

Obviously finding a time that suit everyone is not an easy task and while some people have the luxery of choosing there playing hours others have to fit in with their real life (family / university / 24^^ etc). As many of us are willing to redo missions like the Promyvion runs there should be no problem getting everyone through these things if we all work together.

[vwilsonuk]

If you're arranging an event in this game with a large number of people you've got to be pragmatic. It would be nice if everyone turned up on the dot but rarely do they seem to, and if you really want to get something done that requires other people's involvement you've got to be realistic in your expectations on this.

Seems people are taking a lot of this very personally when there's really no need. If someone doesn't have the time or energy to participate right now and chooses to drop out of a linkshell enterprise for a bit its their choice. They're the ones who will have to come back to it at a later stage if they want it done and rally folks around. I've not heard all the conversations that are being commented on here but I do know I have heard people who were involved in the original Dem run being talked down when their involvement was instrumental to our success. It certainly doesn't make me want to give people a second opportunity right now to take all the benefits and disrespect those who helped them. But everyone makes mistakes and I'm sure over time we will move on and get past all this. In the meantime, this is a game. What does it matter if someone on this game talks sh!t about me; they don't know me, they don't know where I've come from, what I've experienced in life, what difficulties I face or what's I'm like when I'm away from the keyboard. Invariably its a reflection of themselves anyway. If my input isn't valued I'll turn off the pc and go where it is, and enjoy myself whatever I do. You've got to remember you can do this too, all of you.

Come on people, lets not make this a {bind}.

[Tobal]

What the hell most of the conversion was with you so saying you weren't involved when we where trying to convince you to come if complete crap(like always from you), I believe you've just made this from what Mih has only just said(in general being fedup with how Promey has turned out), as i recall we where trying on convince you that we could get through Dem with a 6-man party and that large parties would indeed get more agro(about the only way would go in any promey).

Your quote suggesting we rubbish our only LS members about the 1st Dem battle is a joke, what was said was with the team setup of Rng/pld/snm/drk/rdm/blm we could easily beat and even easier boss version of Dem's boss, and that the tactics of PLD(mih main) being able to keep hate of cowardly blm like you would be better than War/nin that wasn't his main job or an LS member, so stop making crap up to make you seem like this angel you clearly believe you are.

[vwilsonuk]

Tobal you can't talk to people this way and expect them to respond in your favour. It doesn't matter whether you're wrong or right, they'll just tune out. Most people aren't just out to intentionally throw sh!t at each other. They say things because its how a situation appears to them from their point of view. You're saying what you're saying because you believe passionately that's the way it is, and Darwock is doing exactly the same. You both experienced exactly the same events, its your perspectives that are different.

If you say something and someone come's back to you and tells you you're just plain wrong, without making any effort to understand your perspective, its probably only going to polarize your opinion even more, and make you even less receptive to sorting things out. The more this happens, the more extreme everything gets, and the more you'd have to lose face if you were to accept publicly that whatever you said in the first place wasn't quite right or that perhaps there had been a misunderstanding. You become a lot less likely to accept that things might not be as you had originally thought, irrespective of the facts of the situation.

Nobody has intentionally gone out of their way to exclude people here, or to turn up late, or to tell people they can't do their jobs, or to generally pi$$ people off. There's been lots of "reading into" the situation. Its understandable that people's feelings will get hurt if they feel they've been left out, but perhaps there's a question here about how any of us would respond to that situation. If someone doesn't involve you in an event, is it really so safe to jump to conclusions over why? Could it really just be accident, or other things going on at the time - it doesn't need to be so personal. And even if it is, if someone doesn't appreciate what you're bringing to the table, perhaps that's their loss. There's no need to get so wounded about it, as though they are right to attach so little value to your involvement. Maybe they're wrong. Maybe you're worth more. Maybe other people will appreciate it. Maybe in time with a little distance, those same people who didn't value it in the first place will. There's no need for all this resentment if you have some faith in yourself and your ability to get along under your own steam.

[Darwock]

Sorry you're getting so het up over my opinions, as I only equip the pearl once every month or so I'm surprised you're even bothered. However I play the game according to my own ethics, and as it seems you wanted answers as to why I didn't go on ENM-Dem, and I didn't go on the monday night Holla... well I've given you them.

[Tobal]

Look, understand what you saying Hic, but i will not stand by at let Darwock 'wrong end of the stick' slide by, specially knowing his moaning attitude online and then intentionally trying make us out to be bad guys and him to be some shining little angel. Sure there problems to pick at in Mih's post which started this but that here and now, not the remade Darwock history.