Retro|Spective 045: Dead or Alive

[Team Andromeda]

I know all of this is subjective but you really felt DOA Saturn looks better than Tekken 3?

Not to start a war, I thought Last Brox on the Saturn looked better too. DOA just looked awesome on the Saturn, with a higher screen res the most perfect texture mapping seen in a fighter, incredible graphic work done on the extra costumes and far smoother scailing on the backgrounds and more layers used for the bakround too.

Tekken 3 was a better game to play, had the better FMV, extras and also music. But GFX wise I wasn't nearly impressed as others. It was Soul Edge that knocked my socks off, from a GFX perspective on the PS

[MrKirov]

Thought DOA on PS1 looked better than the Saturn version personally.

[Asura]

Tekken 3 was a better game to play, had the better FMV, extras and also music. But GFX wise I wasn't nearly impressed as others. It was Soul Edge that knocked my socks off, from a GFX perspective on the PS

Gotta admit TA, while I agree that Soul Edge certainly did some awesome stuff (like the 3D backdrops and great weapon clash effects) I've never understood why you hold it in such high regard. That's not to say I think you're wrong; aesthetics are subjective, but I just can't see it. Certainly at the time I thought it looked amazing because it was doing so much, with a varied cast of characters, and it's an absolute blast to play, but I don't feel it aged all that well.

Ditto for Last Bronx, especially on Saturn, where I love the design and the fluidity of the movement, control and animation (always Sega fighter strong points), but I find it visually quite glitchy.

Part of the issue, for me, is that the characters had the same "ball-jointed-doll" appearance that affected all early 3D fighters (and in truth all 3D character-based games up until a point).

Tekken 3's character rigging/mesh deformation meant that it was able to have each character be one contiguous model. The resolution is low, but overall, the visuals are very "clean". That was a big leap considering you spend a lot of time in these games looking at the characters. Certainly it wasn't the first game to do this, probably not even the first fighter, but it did it extremely well.

Then again this isn't the supreme arbiter of quality. When I go back to PS1 fighters, the one I invariably play is Bloody Roar. Any chance of that to be a thread, [MENTION=345]Superman Falls[/MENTION]?

[Neon Ignition]

Soul Edge was the 32-bit king! Admittedly if nothing else it was just because of that badass intro

Never got along with Last Bronx, it was in the same bracket as Fighting Vipers for me, a filler rather than killer game. Even visually I'd probably go with Tekken 3, LB always had a look that was a bit dull and flat but admittedly art style is much of that. Soul looks less accomplished than T3 and LB but the effects, lighting etc bring it up quite a bit. For DOA, I prefer the way the visuals come together as a whole on PS1 but the sharper resolution look on Saturn was always appealing and one of the things that kept VF2 a stand out for so long.


I've moved Bloody Roar up the listings a lot so we'll do that one very shortly It was set on the list (currently worked out up to Retro|Spective 116) but was a long way off

But before that we'll be switching genres, for the next thread...

Clue - Wangan Style

[Team Andromeda]

Gotta admit TA, while I agree that Soul Edge certainly did some awesome stuff (like the 3D backdrops and great weapon clash effects) I've never understood why you hold it in such high regard. That's not to say I think you're wrong; aesthetics are subjective, but I just can't see it. Certainly at the time I thought it looked amazing because it was doing so much, with a varied cast of characters, and it's an absolute blast to play, but I don't feel it aged all that well.

I really don't care for this 'aged well' becasue that is hardly the fault of the game or the system. I just remember how blown away I was, when I played Soul Edge on the PS. It looked utterly amazing back in 1996, the intro alone was like somthing Pixar would make, never mind those amazing visuals and while I thought Tekken 3 wouldn't trouble the Saturn (and it did better) Soul Edge was one of those games that one knew, would look like crap on the Saturn.

Trouble with Tekken 3 is after all the hype in CVG I was expected a game to knock my socks off on the GFX front and I saw a game that didn't look better than DOA, Fighters Megamix or Last Bronx on the Saturn tbh and one had to factor in DOA or Last Bronx were running on far more powerful boards too


Have to say though my fav 3D fighter was the original Virtual Fighter on the Saturn.

[Wools]

I think the main visual differences were Saturn DOA was sharper and slicker, PSone Tekken 3 had better animations and more diverse art style.





Personally I prefer Tekken 3. There's something about the way the characters move and the stage design is just brilliant.

[Team Andromeda]

I think the main visual differences were Saturn DOA was sharper and slicker, PSone Tekken 3 had better animations and more diverse art style.





Personally I prefer Tekken 3. There's something about the way the characters move and the stage design is just brilliant.

Linking a 240p video will always fail to the Saturn High Res mode any sort of justice .


I alwayed like the GFX in Megamix more

Nevermind the likes of Last Bronx

[Wools]

Linking a 240p video will always fail to the Saturn High Res mode any sort of justice .

To be fair, the PSone video is filmed off screen to hamper its quality too!

[QualityChimp]

Clue - Wangan Style

Wangan Midnight?

[Neon Ignition]

Nope but so very close

[Leon Retro]

Personally I prefer Tekken 3. There's something about the way the characters move and the stage design is just brilliant.

I also prefer Tekken 3. At the time... the graphics were astonishing. DOA was impressive, but Tekken 3 was the most cutting edge looking fighter at the time. Then Soul Edge appeared.

Nope but so very close

Shutokou Batlle/Tokyo Highway Challenge?

[Neon Ignition]

Shutokou Batlle/Tokyo Highway Challenge?

I doff my cap

[Anpanman]

I also prefer Tekken 3. At the time... the graphics were astonishing. DOA was impressive, but Tekken 3 was the most cutting edge looking fighter at the time. Then Soul Edge appeared.

Yes Soul Edge from a graphics standpoint was excellent, Like putting the game into two player mode just to watch day moving into night. Best set of music in any game too - Khan Super Session!
However I preferred the gameplay in Tekken more.

[BigDeadFreak]

I've just bought Dead or Alive Ultimate, 3 and Extreme Beach Volleyball. Unfortunately, Volleyball doesn't work on the 360 but the others are all backwards compatible.

I had DoA2 on the Dreamcast and there was always something that didn't feel quite right about it. I couldn't put my finger on it at the time but it never quite clicked with me. The graphics were great, the character models were super smooth and the backgrounds were very detailed. It was 60fps and looked great in motion. The gameplay was fast and felt really satisfying. Also, one thing I forgotten was how good the sound effects were/are. Possibly the best in any 3D fighter.

However, stylistically it's a shambles. By this time Tekken (3) and Virtua Fighter (3) had developed a distinct aesthetic of their own. Each fighter had their own stage which was consistent with their character. Lei was clearly fighting in the streets of Hong Kong and Akira was in a dojo, to give but two examples. However, DoA2 is an incoherent mess. Why the hell is a Texan pro wrestler fighting a woman in an opera costume in the snow? One minute they're in a bell tower, then an arena full of exploding walls then a rope bridge. I don't expect the cut scenes in the games to be Shakespearian epics but there's nothing to tie this all together. It's just a collection of random fighter archetypes in random fighting game locations. It's an incoherent mess.

Compare this game to something like Street Fighter 2. Every character felt like they were a well rounded individual who existed outside of the game. It was easy to buy into the idea that they'd been invited to compete in a martial arts tournament, the likes of which we had all seen in countless films before. The early SNK fighting games had an incredible art style that really invoked a sense of place. Genjuro's stage in SS2 and the Mexican stage in KoF 94 were very atmospheric and drew you into the game. The graphics, music, art direction and characterisation all fit together to create something greater than the sum of its parts.

With DoA2 it's hard to invest in what's going on. I enjoy the gameplay and technically it's all very impressive. But, it just feels like a load of random images thrown together; a sort of fighting game muzak. This isn't your typical crazy, Japanese madness (Killer 7 or Switch on the Mega CD) this is just poorly executed.

It doesn't ruin the game, far from it. I'm still enjoying it and plan to get to know the mechanics of it all and learn a couple of characters. It's just a shame that everything feels thrown together rather than thoughtfully crafted.

[Asura]

It doesn't ruin the game, far from it. I'm still enjoying it and plan to get to know the mechanics of it all and learn a couple of characters. It's just a shame that everything feels thrown together rather than thoughtfully crafted.

In truth, I always felt similarly about the Dreamcast DoA2 in comparison to Soul Calibur. However, I should say that I never felt that Virtua Fighter did so well with this either, in fact I've always disliked Virtua Fighter's aesthetic. I always liked how the games looked because they're technically very proficient, and their animation is just wonderful, but I was never a fan of the character designs nor the stages.

I'm not too big a fan of Tekken either in this regard (and their ongoing "motorcycle clothing with metal pieces stuck to it" aesthetic).

I think just in terms of pure theming, the Soul series was the best of the 3D fighters (in Blade/1/2 - then it went off the deep end with the character customisation in 3).