Blu-Ray Best Of The Best - for discussing releases only

[Kotatsu Neko]

Kotatsu, are you using a 1920x1080 display? I don't mean to do the tech willy-waving thing... but when I was on 1366x768 I found that the WB titles did look as good as I was expecting. If you look at it on a 1:1 display though, it separates the great from the unbelievably good and most of the Warners fall short (IMO).

Yeah I have a 1080 panel with 1:1 mapping. To be honest if someone had asked me which discs had the most impressive transfers I would have said Warner stuff. They've always looked great to me.

[sj33]

Really? Even the Matrix?
I've only tried the Matrix ones, Batman Begins and Harry Potter, and they all have the same 'flat, depthless' look to them. It bothers me enough for me to enquire about the Blu-Ray versions instead.

[Lyris]

Each to their own, I actually posted about this once:
http://www.lyris-lite.net/2007/10/it..._movie_so.html - but I agree with the above (not so much as with Harry Potter, but The Matrix is definitely sub-par).

The compressionists working on the Warner HD DVDs seem to get kicks out of "optimising". That is, squeezing the film into small spaces and not filling the disc. Have you seen TMNT? That's only 9 gigabytes! It's not razor sharp either, even if it's close and still looks great.

[Kotatsu Neko]

Really? Even the Matrix?
I've only tried the Matrix ones, Batman Begins and Harry Potter, and they all have the same 'flat, depthless' look to them. It bothers me enough for me to enquire about the Blu-Ray versions instead.

The Matix I'll give you. I did notice that transfer lacked a little punch. Have a look at The Departed or Blood Diamond though, I thought they looked amazing.

[ChrisF]

On a positive note though, this one doesn't have that crappy Disney "Maximum Hi-Def Experience" flash covering half of the bloody front picture for a change!

Worst. Film. Ever. I cancelled my order even though I have the first two on BD. Truly terrible.

[JP]

Just tried the second disc now on my PS3 and I'm having difficulties with it!

The background images from the menu screen is missing so it's completely white:


I've not been able to find anything online about this yet, has anybody else had a similar problem? Is it working OK for the people who are trying it on their PS3?

I'm just wondering if it's a disc problem or something to do with the upcoming 1.1 profile?

Any advice would be appreciated.

[Lyris]

Probably just a BD-Java problem. I hear that thing is horrible to program.

[Angry the Clown]

The compressionists working on the Warner HD DVDs seem to get kicks out of "optimising".

That?s a bit unfair. The decision about what is to go on a disc is made higher up. Whilst certainly the compressionist may have some input in explaining the logistics involved with regard to what might be harmful to overall quality, it ultimately comes to the point where they?re just left to do as they?re told and make everything fit to, in Warner?s case, the max bandwidth rate of HD DVD. Since no two films are the same, and the availability of multiple audio tracks and special features vary from title to title, obviously results are going to be mixed given the way Warner continue to insist on working.

Compressionists really value their work and always hope to be able to do the best job, but pressure from above and/or technical limitations can get in their way. One of AVS? best insiders was a chap who went by the name of CJPlay who works as a compressionist for Warner. He was very honest and open about the limitations those in his field faced with regards to demands from their employers to get as much content on a single disc and bandwidth limitations? too honest in fact, as Warner demanded he cease posting on the forum in 2006. I don?t know how many of his posts remain (I choose not to have an AVS membership so can?t search) though I know some of his more detailed comments ultimately had to be removed sadly. To this day he was the most impartial insider that forum had.

I?m curious as to what point in the chain Warner are filtering some of their titles. At the mastering or encoding stage. New titles they can extract from a digital intermediate (300 for want of a recent example) seem to fare better. Gold and silver age catalogue titles that have gone through extensive re-mastering and restoration hold up well too, but it?s films mastered in the typical telecine fashion that tend to deliver the most mixed results from the studio.

On an unrelated note, I?m told that watermark issue I brought up earlier in the thread is not present on the HD version of Potter 3 thankfully.

Just tried the second disc now on my PS3 and I'm having difficulties with it!

I'm just wondering if it's a disc problem or something to do with the upcoming 1.1 profile?

Any advice would be appreciated.

There is no 1.1 content on the disc. It?s most likely something rather random given that this does not appear to be a more widely reported issue. Could be the PS3 (related to firmware).

Probably just a BD-Java problem. I hear that thing is horrible to program.

I hear that too, though it tends to be Microsoft employees knocking it the most and I can?t imagine why. Honestly, I think the BD-J programming debate has been spun out of control. I used to think it was potentially troubling until I got to hear from people actually working with it. The code is longer certainly, but it?s a diverse system and for BD-J specific apps they do have some rather intuitive software now to make things easier. BD-J is really only an issue for those who don?t know Java ? but countless people the world over do so I think the programming debate is moot.

Stability of playback in hardware for handling Java content however is another matter. Players are getting better though. That new Panasonic BD30 is apparently very close in performance to the PS3 so I think as we move in 2008 we?ll see somewhat slow players become a thing of the past. I still can't get over just how good a player the PS3 turned out to be.

[Lyris]

One of AVS’ best insiders was a chap who went by the name of CJPlay who works as a compressionist for Warner. He was very honest and open about the limitations those in his field faced with regards to demands from their employers to get as much content on a single disc and bandwidth limitations… too honest in fact, as Warner demanded he cease posting on the forum in 2006.

Ah, wow - that's what happened to CJPlay?

You're right that people's expectations of how much material a DVD (or now, I guess, an HD DVD - less so BD) can hold is unrealistic. It's a real shame that the stupid "made to order" throwaway special features craze was allowed to take off. I've made tests that look better than any commercially available DVD I've seen, all because the film is given room to breathe. It's depressing. But I suppose if they let DVD be what it can be, then they'd have an even harder time selling the new formats. You wonder if they do what they do to SD DVD on purpose.

For the DVD I'm working on now, I let the company know what the price of cramming the disc full of extras really is and showed them the difference between video that had been transferred from the DigiBeta master tape and left alone, and compared it against another release of the same film. They agreed that the difference wasn't subtle in the slightest. Luckily this is a fairly niche film and there's not really a lot of bonus features anyway.

Anyway, this is a BD thread...

I still can't get over just how good a player the PS3 turned out to be.

Me neither. The DVD playback now is excellent - the discs mine will accept, at least. At least as good at scaling as the Gennum VXP based video processor I briefly had. It's such a shame that there's no way around the region lock and the US/Japanese units won't even touch PAL discs - it's a total waste.

[Kotatsu Neko]

It's such a shame that there's no way around the region lock and the US/Japanese units won't even touch PAL discs - it's a total waste.

They won't even touch region free PAL content, which is just bizarre. My US 360 doesn't mind PAL content in the slightest.

[JP]

Thanks for the advice!

So to get this straight, it's not that I've managed to bag myself a faulty disc as such. It's something that is going to be present on all of them and it's just a matter of waiting for a remedy which will probably come via firmware?

[Angry the Clown]

Ah, wow - that's what happened to CJPlay?

According to Amir and others, yes. Most unfortunate. At least he didn't lose his job over it.

You're right that people's expectations of how much material a DVD (or now, I guess, an HD DVD - less so BD) can hold is unrealistic. It's a real shame that the stupid "made to order" throwaway special features craze was allowed to take off. I've made tests that look better than any commercially available DVD I've seen, all because the film is given room to breathe. It's depressing. But I suppose if they let DVD be what it can be, then they'd have an even harder time selling the new formats. You wonder if they do what they do to SD DVD on purpose.

This is really why I consider Blu-ray's capacity/bandwidth such an advantage from a long term perspective because there's simply no telling what studios are going to want to slap on these discs in three, four years time and for that reason I find it more of a comfort knowing that compressionists have that greater bandwidth to allow content to "breathe" that little bit more. Not that any of this guarantees quality as certain 2006 Blu releases showed, and for all I know studios could just as easily exploit these advantages as lone excuse for adding even more extras/interactivity rather than using them to maintain a consistent balance of quality between audio, video and special features as they seem to be doing right now. DVD began to suffer far too early in its life as the ambitions of studios reached beyond what was really achievable on the disc. I think on a technical level the format peaked around the year 2000, and even by this point, only three year's into the format's life, compromises were being made.

It?s funny how my feelings have changed over the past year with regard to the HD formats as I did very much enjoy that HD DVD event we attended last December. Save for the disconcerting shrugging of shoulders they presented me with when I raised my concerns over bandwidth limitations, Amir and Kevin could not have left me more encouraged about HD DVD?s future in 2007. However, as this year has come and gone nothing that they seemed to hope would happen has really come to pass. I think HD DVD is a terrific format but one that has come to be distinctly undervalued by its backers ? chiefly Toshiba - and I consider their recent moves to be doing it a great disservice, not to mention the fact there is little evidence of Universal or Paramount showing passion similar to Disney?s when it comes to their format of choice. I just find the format to be in a very odd place at the moment.

By comparison, Sony Home Entertainment turned themselves around in ways I never expected and I am really very impressed with the aforementioned balance they, Fox and Disney currently appear to want to take in using Blu-ray?s specs to ensure a consistent level of quality between a/v and supplements. Disney in particular, the one studio I thought would have every reason to go neutral by this point, has really come out in showing their sincere passion for Blu-ray ? not just in the quality of their releases, but in leading the promotional charge for the format amongst studios in the US both with dedicated TV commercials, print ads and their tour of shopping malls. I always expected Sony to be doing the legwork, Disney to be sitting back somewhat and quietly evaluating the progress of the market, an Fox to just continue being the loudmouth drunk in the corner making exaggerated claims. I guessed wrong? about Sony and Disney anyway.

So to get this straight, it's not that I've managed to bag myself a faulty disc as such. It's something that is going to be present on all of them and it's just a matter of waiting for a remedy which will probably come via firmware?

Well not necessarily. That?s merely one possibility. It could indeed be that the fault lies with the disc (although why/how a menu error might only manifest in a single copy or batch of copies I?m not sure), or it could be a flaw of every disc in circulation. The best thing you can do is to check some forums and see if anyone else is noticing the fault on the PS3 (or indeed dedicated players) as that may give the best clues as to whether it?s a disc of player firmware issue.

[Lyris]

Disney in particular, the one studio I thought would have every reason to go neutral by this point, has really come out in showing their sincere passion for Blu-ray – not just in the quality of their releases,

Yeah, have you seen Ratatouille, Angry? By about half-way through I couldn't believe I hadn't spotted a single compression artefact and started seeing them when there were none. I just couldn't believe it.

Obviously it's totally grain free, but all the detail and scenes with a lot of water are still a huge achievement. That's one title that got me thinking, "what would this have looked like on HD DVD?"

Since HD DVD and BD authoring isn't exactly easy right now (the people who wrote Sonic Scenarist should be punished ) it's difficult for me to know exactly what's possible at what maximum bit-rate and what disc capacity (compared to SD DVD where I have some idea).

[Kotatsu Neko]

Disney in particular, the one studio I thought would have every reason to go neutral by this point, has really come out in showing their sincere passion for Blu-ray

Disney virtually admitted they were being paid by the BDA to support blu-ray, so that's hardly surprising.

[Angry the Clown]

Yeah, have you seen Ratatouille, Angry?

I?m in the process of re-doing my viewing room and ordering a new TV at the moment. As a result I?ve HD purchases piling up, with Ratatouille being one of them. I?m looking forward to it (it?s a fantastic film). The folks at Pixar seem to be tremendously excited and hands on with the Blu-ray production of their titles which I find very exciting. I think Finding Nemo and Wall-E next year are going to be superb discs.

What did you make of the Sleeping Beauty promo?

Disney virtually admitted they were being paid by the BDA to support blu-ray, so that's hardly surprising.

I can only assume you refer to the ?no comment? response at IFA with regard to whether they accepted ?sweeteners.? You certainly can?t be referring to Disney CEO Bob Iger when he stated "We haven't taken any money (to choose Blu-ray) because we think it's far and away the best business". Naturally if Iger?s words are not considered to be in keeping with anyone?s personal opinion they?ll be dismissed as an outright lie, and so be it ? they may well be for all we know, but it remains a far more definitive response to the question, particularly when the term ?sweeteners? is so vague and can be so easily misconstrued by the internet?s many poor excuses for journalism. To put it another way, if ?no comment? can basically be considered Disney admitting to being paid off to support Blu-ray then Toshiba admitting ?some money? being exchanged in the Paramount/Dreamworks contract might as well be considered them admitting to paying the full $150m amount as rumoured.

I?m open to speculation when certain factors just don?t add up, and although I too - a year to two ago - was one to question Disney?s stance, the years have gone on with no real evidence to suggest they?re being offered money to stick with the format. Logic and business sense gets in the way of these conspiracy theories holding any merit after a point. Contractual incentives, most likely subsidies of some kind (since a direct pay off can be interpreted as illegal), to help assist with certain costs over an interim period is not an alien concept for either format. However, obviously such subsidies can only be maintained for a certain period of time before it becomes financially risky to continue. Where Disney is concerned, it is important to remember that they have been backing Blu-ray exclusively since 2004, pledging support well ahead of Fox, Lionsgate or Paramount/Warner. As we approach 2008 it is a deeply unrealistic prospect to think that Disney have been paid off for three years on the trot, not when the companies involved have shareholders to answer to, and especially not when other supporting studios would ask why they were not getting the special treatment too (at which point the notion of them all being paid off becomes even more ludicrous a thought).

It should really not be a continuing struggle at this point to simply accept that, yes, Disney do actually love Blu-ray and are getting everything they want out of the format. I would have thought by now that the sheer level of personal expense and effort they are putting into producing and promoting their discs and the format itself makes it abundantly clear they believe it is the right choice for them, and ultimately the consumer. Believe me, I never expected this level of quality and support from Disney, but this is where they stand and it is frankly baffling to me why HD DVD is lacking a similar level of confidence from either one of its exclusive studios this winter. Fact of the matter is, if Disney wanted to go neutral by this point they actually could have. It should never be forgotten that Disney have yet to ever abstain from voting on the evolution of the HD DVD spec in DVD Forum meetings because they?re not stupid ? particularly when it comes to matters of home video distribution (further reason why they would never be so foolish as to contractually bind themselves to any one format for an extended period). If they do find themselves having to ultimately support that which is not their format of choice they?ll at least be in a better position having had a say in HD DVD's spec than they might be with the format if they hadn?t.

Sorry to go off one one of my characteristic rambles again. Doctors tell me I need to cut down. I shall move on...


Has anyone taken delivery of the Die Hard discs yet? Lyris? I'm interested in how the first and third films have turned out. Having seen some direct screencaps from the two discs I must admit they look rather pleasing indeed (it?s a miracle there seems to now be a home video release of ?with a Vengeance? not riddled with edge enhancement).