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[Matt]

11 stone = 154lbs = 225g of protein a day. Having 25g of protein powder per shake, with milk for the extra protein and carbs, a tub will last you a month with 3 servings per day.

[Paradigm]

£35 or whatever doesn't sound bad for a month then. Maybe I'll try it for a month and see how it goes.

I should go for a 100% whey product? Where would I get this from in the high street? Know it's silly but do Holland & Barrett sell this kinda stuff amongst their other rubbish?

[recipher]

Here's a question about strength building with protein as I'm working towards being a triathlete (Ironman).

I'm strength training in the gym at the moment - twice a week, 2x12 reps of weights that I can push but aren't too easy (so by the last reps I'm about done). I'm training to build strength and muscular endurance. Improving my body shape is a bonus and comes along for the ride. I don't want to put weight on, though I can tolerate some gain. I don't have much fat to lose, maybe a couple of kgs.

I have a strong lower body relative to my core and upper body. The strength training I'm doing is whole body - legs, core, upper - in each session.

My biggest problem is core strength and shoulders, lats, chest. I'm pretty feeble at the moment. It makes swimming a bit tough. The hours I'm putting in in the water is obviously going to strengthen those muscles but I want to give my body a helping hand.

So, given all that - is using protein powder a good idea? I want to gain strength but I don't care about shape and I don't want to gain weight.

[charlesr]

To a certain extent, strength and body mass are linked - if you get stronger you've gained muscle and you need increased protein to do this - try it and see if it makes a difference to your training over the course of 6 weeks. However, as an athlete you are are doing the right thing with 2x12 in that you will gain strength without excessive muscle growth. Going for low reps like 6 and below may give you large increases in mass with less than proportional strength benefits.

The main question you should be asking yourself is: "Am I improving?"
If you find you've plateaued with the same weight at 2x12, then you need some different exercises. I normally don't do the same exercise on the same body part for more than 6 weeks at a time. Even if changing it just means doing 8 reps at a higher weight instead of 12 and then returning to 12 after another 6 weeks. Or switching from a bench press with a barbell to a bench press with dumbells. Anything to get the body doing something slightly different.

And for core strength, the exercises in my current program have been designed to sort out my back and core. The "military press on ball" one is bloody impossible. My back is so messed up I can only do 5Kg in each hand. I should note that it's important to keep your back straight and your tummy firm during these exercises otherwise you WILL injure yourself. Things like the row to shoulder press (at the top) will give you a back mischief without proper posture and the step over lunge will mess up your knees unless your landing points are exactly right or your knee travels forward past your foot. These are very different from doing a weights machine or bench press - they are all designed to put you off balance and I found them very hard to start with. Please be careful. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

[Matt]

Going for low reps like 6 and below may give you large increases in mass with less than proportional strength benefits.

I'd argue that, or at least be more specific.

1-4 reps tends to be for strength, not size. You'll get bigger of course. 4-8 reps seems the best for size. Anything above I almost count as CV 8)

There's a really good article about this here:

http://bodybuilding.com/fun/layne45.htm

I'm inclined to agree. Don't stick with one rep range, vary it every week if you're after a bit of muscle, a bit of strength, a bit of fitness. For pure size, stick with 4-8 reps, ideally 6.

But it depends on each person, we're all different! My arms seem to grow a lot quicker on high reps, supersetting tris and bis. Even then that may not always be the case, your body adapts so keep it guessing.

Paradigm, certainly buy protein in H&B, but don't buy their own brand! Go for Reflex, CNP (expensive though), MRM, they're my favourites. I don't like LA Muscle or Maximuscle, but that's just me.

Don't get 100% protein, it's crap quality. Get Whey and Casein, maybe as a blend if not Whey for day, Casein for night. I've posted all about this in this thread already so search for more specific info.

100% protein tends not to be whey based (though I think I've seen some 100% whey, or close enough). It tends to be vegetable based or some ****. Reflex Instant Whey, what I currently use, is 78% or something, with a few g carbs and fat. That won't hurt at all.

[Paradigm]

Sounds pretty good. When I was going to the gym six times a week I found I was always mega hungry afterwards or about an hour afterwards, no doubt my metabolic rate getting even faster (I eat like a fatty anyway). Looking at monstersupplements and the prices are good, did a search in the thread. I should get a 5lb tub of Reflex Instant Whey, a xxlb(?) tub of Casein for the night and some maltodexin for right after the gym to put in the whey/milkshake? Obv. I want to add a lot of muscle but not really put on any fat!

[charlesr]

1-4 reps tends to be for strength, not size. You'll get bigger of course. 4-8 reps seems the best for size. Anything above I almost count as CV 8)

Hmm, yes you are right, I was misleading. I always forget that. Powerlifters go for strength with very low reps don't they?

[recipher]

Strength and endurance is what I'm after. Thanks for the advice.

My problem with my weight programme is that I don't really want to spend a huge amount of time learning what I'm supposed to be doing. It's a bit lazy but I'm already having to learn a lot with my Ironman training programme since I'm learning to swim and I'm building an 8/9 month training programme for the event itself.

I'm going to be gaining a lot of strength from the training I'm doing on the road and in the pool - at the moment, I'm averaging about 4-5 hours on the bike, 2.5-3 hours running and 3-4 hours of swimming. I'm only going to be in the gym until April when I need to devote more time outside.

Any advice is useful. I'm going to add a couple of home training sessions. Any advice on where I can get one of those bosu balls? They look pretty good. I need to get a fitball too. It'll be some core work plus pressups and a maybe some other stuff.

I'm a bit limited at my gym - I use 7 machines (leg press, curl and extension, chest press, lat pulldown, shoulder press and rowing torso) but don't do much in the way of free weights - dead lifts and calf raise as well as core work.

I like your programme Charles - I might cannabalise some of that, if you don't mind - I can do that at home if I get a bosu ball and a fitball.

Any reason to avoid maximuscle, chain? That was what I was looking at.

[charlesr]

http://www.physicalcompany.co.uk/welcome.asp

Not sure how you actually order one as a member of the public. Ring them up.
Bosu = both sides up. You can use them the other way up for extreme wobble. I used one to sort out my knee injury.
Of course I don't mind, but as I said, it's an advanced program with very specific aims (kill all stability during exercises so that my core and back do a lot of work), so take it real easy. It's not nearly as safe as using a bench or a machine.

[recipher]

Cheers - I think a lot of it is going to need instruction to make sure it's done right so I won't be doing a lot of it. I like the bosu thing though.

I take it Lucy is a personal trainer then? That's handy.

Edit: There's a retail version that you can buy - it's £80 which is a bit steep. I might just stick with the fitball which you can pick up for about £25.

[Matt]

Any reason to avoid maximuscle, chain? That was what I was looking at.

I think it's over marketted crap TBH. I sell Maximuscle Cyclone as some guys swear by it, but it tastes like **** and over priced.

End of the day, most brands manufacture whey protein to the same kind of standard, so I'd say once you have a brand flavour you like, stick with it. What I think tastes nice, another will loathe. Protein shakes can vary from lovely (MRM is still the nicest tasting I reckon) to dross. But the quality is usually around the same.

Maybe get a couple of small tubs from different manufacturers for a tasting session.

[Matt]

Sounds pretty good. When I was going to the gym six times a week I found I was always mega hungry afterwards or about an hour afterwards, no doubt my metabolic rate getting even faster (I eat like a fatty anyway). Looking at monstersupplements and the prices are good, did a search in the thread. I should get a 5lb tub of Reflex Instant Whey, a xxlb(?) tub of Casein for the night and some maltodexin for right after the gym to put in the whey/milkshake? Obv. I want to add a lot of muscle but not really put on any fat!

You'll almost certainly add some muscle. Can't be avoided - to build muscle you need excess calories, and unless you get EXACTLY the right amount some will end up as fat. Keep a good record of diet and you'll find your sweet spot. Don't worry, fat comes off. You won't go all Orca overnight.

Sounds like you've got the basics down. Just work out how much protein and carbs per meal you need. 154lb weight, 6 meals a day:

Protein - 35-40g
Carbs - 50g

With your shakes, have 500ml milk (25g carbs) and add a banana (25g carbs) to make up the intake. Don't worry too much about the instructions on the side of the protein tub, do it to your requirments. 500ml milk = 17g protein, you'll want 20g more so that's about 25g of whey protein powder. Actually that's about average, probably 2 of the little Reflex scoops. But heap them up, better to have too much than too little

And as you say, chuck in a scoop of maltrodexin (25g) in to the shake post workout. TBH if you want to gain size quick, don't even count your post-workout shake as one of your 6 meals. It's an extra meal, and have a full proper meal 30 mins or so later. I also like having a shake 30-45 mins before I workout, but be careful it's not squat day that can end up messy

Eat some nuts as well, have them mid-morning for essential fatty acids and a protein boost.

Take casein protein before bed. If you want to gain weight quick, drink it with a pint or two of milk. You may add some paunch so keep an eye on it, but that'll slow digestion and give you amino acids throughout the night, plus carbing up before bed is a good way to add size.

Basically, EAT. Too many people skimp on food, thinking they eat enough. That's never the case. Even fat people don't eat too much, it tends to be the kind of food and calories they're eating. They switch over to a protein high diet, they'd drop weight even without dropping calories.

Have a good multi-vitamin, go to H&B buy something decent and big, then take one in the morning and one in the evening! Training puts more stress on you than the average person walking to work, so double them up.

If you start getting rundown, ease off training a little, and increase vitamin C to 3-4g a day.

Read elsewhere here for some workout advice I gave someone else. That's a good place to start. Don't train 6 days a week. Go 3 times for 45 mins each time. Trust me. Train HEAVY to failure every set, 3 sets of 4-6 reps, and only one or two exercises per body part. None of this 3 sets of 10-12 rep ****ing about, you want big weights, and FAILURE means you push as hard as you can and you don't quit until you're crying blood. And then you do a second and third set quickly after!!

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGHRRRRRRR! HARDCORE!

Then come back in 3 months and we'll talk about creatine

Then come back in 12 months and we'll talk about DoggCrapp 8)

[Paradigm]

I wasn't doing weights six times a week, I was doing those 3 times a week. The other 3 days basically consisted of me doing running/cycling/rowing as I'm aiming to do the Great North Run next year. Having trouble finding casein on that website, any brand I should be looking under?

Cheers for all the advice btw, massively appreciated. I put on about a stone in weight in three months of going to the gym which I found was pretty amazing, if I managed to put another stone of muscle (well, if it feels like muscle!!) on in another 3 months I'd be mega pleased.

[charlesr]

None of this 3 sets of 10-12 rep ****ing about, you want big weights, and FAILURE means you push as hard as you can and you don't quit until you're crying blood.

Rock! Too right man. Something like 70-80% (more??) of the benefit comes from the first rep. For people that don't have a lot of time for training but just want to keep fit, they might as well just do 1 set of as heavy a weight as they can without giving themselves a hernia and have done with it.

I see people at the gym who sit on a machine and do 12 reps 3 times and aren't even sweating by the end of it. What's the f'ing point? GET IN THERE and GO HARDCORE. It's because they are clueless though. I'd be the same if I didn't have Lucy to tell me what to do though. I try and pass on a bit of the knowledge - not sure if I get it all right but it's generally in the right direction but so many people get passed info that so badly out of date or just plain wrong, it's no wonder so many join a gym each year and then quite after 2 months when they don't see results.

[Commander Marklar]

Me o/\o You lot

Yeah man, I said before like it's all about doing it fast and HARD. Well, fast once you've got good technique like... Actually, not fast like super-speed 'cos it's important to go through the full range of movement but fast like you don't spend hours doing 20 different arm sets when 2 is enough, half-hour tops and then recover. I do 2x8 reps max and struggle through a third set (like literally, the first and second rep and I can't lift any more) and if I can struggle and finish then it ain't heavy enough, up goes the kilos. 2 types of exercise and that's it for that muscle, onto something else and rotate each day and mix it up, try new stuff all the time.

Cracks me up when I see some folk on the machines and stuff. You can tell 'em and they're like, "WTF?!" and even worse is when the 'instructors' don't correct people and just seem to ignore it. Like women and abs. Why are you doing JUST ab work, fatty? "Oh, I'm working the flab off my belly". Yeah, sure you are love Another one is the cyclists you see almost everyday with their books doing 40-50 sometimes 60 minutes one the lowest resistance on the machine, just as fat as the day they started. "But I DO go to the gym!".

Heh, sorry Got my tub of banana whey protein today and it's ****ing lovely. Yum! Protein shake will sort the hunger out Paradigm, especially at night/before bed so your body retains/builds muscle overnight.

Ah, I love the new year for all the cheap fitness crap you can pick up from places like Tesco Granted, you wouldn't want weights and stuff but there's some nice steps, mats and fit balls for next to nothing like.