They beat the speed of light?

[Pikate]

Last 20 seconds of this video says it all

I'm not saying Physics is pointless, as I've said a couple of times I'm studying Medicine & Surgery so my life is based on Biology and Chemistry, both of which are deep-rooted in Physics I just don't want to devote my life to that quest for knowledge when we have actual solvable problems.

I mean we can look for god-particles, anti-matter and all kinds of anti-god crap but we question the ethics of stem cell research that could probably cure Alzheimer's and a thousand other crappy diseases? We leave looking for a cure for cancer to the industry that makes BILLIONS every year from treating it.

It's just a personal choice. I'd rather learn things that are going to further my career and allow me to make a difference than learn a bunch of theories that rely on even more theories and spend my life questioning them hoping, one day, one of them is proved right.

Edit: A better way to look at my view: I'm a Mac-girl but some of you probably build your own PCs? You don't turn your shed into an anti-static environment and make your own processors? There's a level with this stuff we all get on at and the LHC I just don't see why I need to know it until someone else finds a practical application for that in Biology or Chemistry.

[Duncan James Waugh]

<Wrong thread - deleted>

[averybluemonkey]

Without all those budding physicists and chemists medicine would pretty much still involve leeches and amputations. And without the work these guys are doing today we will likely descend to that state again when the fossil fuels run out. Saving individual human life is great but we can be replaced easily, what these other guys do ensures the long term future and evolution of the race as a whole.

[cavalcade]

Cost to build the LHC (shared) - 4 billion
NHS budget for a year - 106 billion
Cost of failed NHS computerisation project - 12 billion
% spent of total UK GDP on scientific research - 2.5%
% spent of total GDP on health - 8%

It's not expensive. It allows us to understand what we are, why we are and how things work at an absolutely fundamental level. It's either that or pay surgeons and a bloated NHS management structure to drive BMWs.

[Brad]

^^^^ My favourite post this week.

[Dogg Thang]

Yeah, it's not really an either/or scenario. Although the ridiculous NHS figures and failed computer projects aren't a sign that health shouldn't have the money, just that that particular system should be torn down, all the main players removed, and a better system rebuilt. That's a farce.

But health is one area where the commercial nature of our world totally bites us in the ass. It rewards chronic illness, not cure. Although immunisation is big money because it can be government sanctioned, I don't know if it adds up to the rewards of treating chronic illnesses.

There are some ridiculous science studies though and there have been times when I've thought that time, money and scientific expertise could be far better spent on finding me (specifically) a cure for death.

Of course, the real problem here is not the money. It's the whole opening a portal to a demon dimension and unleashing hordes of creatures on this world or devouring our planet from our own created black hole. Both scenarios are proven to be inevitable.

[kryss]

I mean we can look for god-particles, anti-matter and all kinds of anti-god crap but we question the ethics of stem cell research that could probably cure Alzheimer's and a thousand other crappy diseases? We leave looking for a cure for cancer to the industry that makes BILLIONS every year from treating it.

Um, what?

Physics is not about disproving any deity of any form, just about finding out what's going on. I would think that the same people who are against stem cell research (which I am all for) are against all other scientific progress (sorry to generalise but nutjob americans mainly).

Without "a bunch of theories that rely on even more theories" your Mac wouldn't exist.

[Pikate]

Cost to build the LHC (shared) - 4 billion
NHS budget for a year - 106 billion
Cost of failed NHS computerisation project - 12 billion
% spent of total UK GDP on scientific research - 2.5%
% spent of total GDP on health - 8%

It's not expensive. It allows us to understand what we are, why we are and how things work at an absolutely fundamental level. It's either that or pay surgeons and a bloated NHS management structure to drive BMWs.

Firstly, you're not comparing like for like, the NHS is A&E, your local GP, midwives... Services EVERYONE uses. The computerisation project is nothing to do with Medicine. That's a governance failure. The actual comparison to the NHS would be the education sector?

And when your wife/child is in a potentially fatal car crash but a surgeon saves their life come back and tell me you begrudge that surgeon his BMW (is that even something to admire these days? I prefer Audi's myself and personally I think for all this studying I'm doing/have to do I think if sub-par Premiership footballers have a Bentley I deserve one too).

Without all those budding physicists and chemists medicine would pretty much still involve leeches and amputations. And without the work these guys are doing today we will likely descend to that state again when the fossil fuels run out. Saving individual human life is great but we can be replaced easily, what these other guys do ensures the long term future and evolution of the race as a whole.

Again, how do you come to that conclusion? You eat beef but you don't go out and slaughter/butcher the cow. I use an iPhone but I couldn't code it or repair it.

I know a lot about physics, I understand space-time, I understand the big bang theory and evolution. I've learnt enough to know that learning/understanding these theories takes time and there is no practical application for that knowledge in my life. You can say that everything in the world is 10 degrees removed from some physics theory but do I need to understand all the minutiae of life and existence? No.

I mean the majority of you aren't Doctors and never will be. Does that make you a bad parent because there are a thousand situations in which I could save your child's life while you are scrambling around to dial 999? And would you rather your local GP read that little bit extra about pulmonary hypertension that helped him save your elderly parent's life or would you rather he read up on and fully understood string theory?

Um, what?

Physics is not about disproving any deity of any form, just about finding out what's going on. I would think that the same people who are against stem cell research (which I am all for) are against all other scientific progress (sorry to generalise but nutjob americans mainly).

Without "a bunch of theories that rely on even more theories" your Mac wouldn't exist.

I'm an atheist? I don't believe in creationism. I don't care what physics disproves. I just think it stinks that those who do direct their "ethical high-horse" to medical research when as far as they know CERN could potentially open up a black hole. Or go all Da Vinici code sequel on us...

Again, not saying we don't need physicists, just saying they're not the be-all-and-end-all of learning and goodness (Atom Bomb anyone?) and personally, I'm not a physicist? I don't feel a need to know this stuff until it has a practical application.

[Pikate]

P.S. Don't mean to sound like a snooty b!tch. I just think the intellectual debate is a bit interesting.

[Brad]

You might not discover a practical application for this stuff until you know it though :-) Interesting discussion though.

[kryss]

I have no interest in religion or people trying to sell it to me, and people using it as a basis for arguing against science drives me crazy. (none of those apply to you Pikate, just to be clear)

Medical research accidentally creating Khan Noonian Sung is as likely as CERN's particle accelerator creating a black hole. Yes, I'm giving a ridiculous example to illustrate the point. Also referencing the massively inaccurate "Demons and Angels" as to why trying to isolate antimatter is a bad idea is not the best point ever. I'm fairly confident that more antimatter streams into the atmosphere from the Sun's solar winds every day than CERN makes and uses.

Saying that medical research benefits us more today than physics research does may be true but is also very shortsighted. Research into both is necessary, with advances taking time and skills. Without physics, we would have no MRI scanners to find issues, and without medicine we couldn't treat them. If you want to take pot shots at the big pharmaceutical companies then go right ahead, and I'll break out the particle accelerators to irradiate them.

Regarding cancer (your choice to read, just my personal opinion as a non-doctor):

->Open Spoiler<-

we will never find a "miracle cure" for cancer. Better/earlier detection techniques, more effective and less damaging treatments, yes. Prevention...Would be fantastic but not likely, just better risk assessment leading to increased awarenss/screening for those more at risk. I've lost plenty of family members to cancer and know I'll develop it at some point.

[QualityChimp]

Medical research accidentally creating Khan Noonian Sung is as likely as CERN's particle accelerator creating a black hole.

Shows what you know!

I once saw a documentary about this scientist who worked at a secret underground military research base and whilst performing a routine experiment into transportation, they accidentally opened a portal to another dimension.

Poor guy had to get out with just a crowbar...

[kryss]

Really QC, and what does that have to do with Ricardo Montalban?

[EJG1980]

You might not discover a practical application for this stuff until you know it though :-) Interesting discussion though.

That's a very important point. What starts out as theoretical bleeding edge stuff eventually works its way down into the mainstream and the mundane. Computers, cars, aeroplanes, etc., loads of stuff that we take for granted as a "normal" thing that have only come about because we're constantly questing to improve our knowledge of the way the universe works. You can't go straight to the practical stage, you need to explore and question the theory first to get there.

The crazier and more advanced theoretical cool sciency stuff we study now, the more cool **** we're gonna have to play with in the future

[averybluemonkey]

Again, how do you come to that conclusion? You eat beef but you don't go out and slaughter/butcher the cow. I use an iPhone but I couldn't code it or repair it.

Personally I believe it's not wise to use any machine or form of technology without understanding how it works first (I don't have a driving license yet but I still have a copy of Hillier's on my bookshelf).

I know a lot about physics, I understand space-time, I understand the big bang theory and evolution. I've learnt enough to know that learning/understanding these theories takes time and there is no practical application for that knowledge in my life.

This is simply not true. If you understand special relativity as you say then you should know that for example, GPS systems and mobile communications simply wouldn't work without it. All those machines that doctor's learn to use? They were built by the practical applications developed by physicists.

I mean the majority of you aren't Doctors and never will be. Does that make you a bad parent because there are a thousand situations in which I could save your child's life while you are scrambling around to dial 999? And would you rather your local GP read that little bit extra about pulmonary hypertension that helped him save your elderly parent's life or would you rather he read up on and fully understood string theory?

Just because you don't have a use for the knowledge doesn't mean that it's advancement to the world isn't just as important to the human race as medical advancements. Your statement about the worth of physics research was not made in context to your personal life but instead you made a value judgement comparing it's worth against that of medical research.

At the end of the day if the hospitals shut tomorrow a lot more people would die, but we wouldn't become extinct, life would go on. I'd be dead as would many of my family if it hadn't been for the doctors and I'm grateful for that, but death is a part of life.

Without the practical applications afforded by physics research our current way of life is not maintainable in the long term, let alone any hope for a better future. Medical research helps to maintain the status quo, but what's the point if the future doesn't hold something better than what we have now?