Paris

[dvdx2]

Every country from history that tried to end religious thinking, became an actual hellhole.

goes the other way too, though - many countries who embrace it, are actual hellholes

[charlesr]

Like America, where 1 in 100 people are in jail. It's a slave labour workforce. They have 5% of the world's population, but 25% of the world's prisoners. Land of the free! Wait, no. And of those in federal prisons, something crazy like 95% say they are Christian, whereas only 22% of the general population mark themselves as secular. God forgives those who repents. The prison system does not.

[Dirty Sanchez]

religion is strongest where education is weakest.

religion preys on the ignorance of those unable to find their own path.

[Howiee]

religion is strongest where education is weakest.

religion preys on the ignorance of those unable to find their own path.

Sounds like you're saying your path is the only way.

[Howiee]

goes the other way too, though - many countries who embrace it, are actual hellholes

Absolutely. Theocracies can be horrible places too. The one thing that all these religious and irreligious places have in common, is people.

[Dirty Sanchez]

Sounds like you're saying your path is the only way.

no, I'm saying where people are poorly educated they are much easier to lead with religion. As they become more educated they can make their own choice.

[Howiee]

I agree that religion should be an educated and informed choice, but to say that poor education correlates with religious belief is an outrageous claim.

The motto of Oxford University – one of the world's finest educational establishments – is, The Lord is My Light.

[Dirty Sanchez]

I agree that religion should be an educated and informed choice, but to say that poor education correlates with religious belief is an outrageous claim.

The motto of Oxford University ? one of the world's finest educational establishments ? is, The Lord is My Light.

Outrageous to you, but backed by plenty of data. One such example would be the bible belt in America. It's no coincidence the influence of religion is a reflection of the highest rate of illiteracy in the country.

[Howiee]

What answers to serious questions that science can't answer has religion found during this seeking? What methods do religious folk use to find these answers. I mean, I've seen the results of science during my time on earth and how they have helped reduce pain and suffering using the tried and tested hypothesis -> test -> result -> proof system but I've not seen religion produce anything like that. These are genuine questions by the way; I dismissed all religions a long time ago without really having much understanding of them so whilst I'm unlikely to ever be converted I am interested in learning and understanding.

I don't think it's controversial so say that there are many questions science can't (and doesn't try to) answer: why is a certain action moral/immoral? What is beauty? Is there an ultimate purpose to existence? etc. For me, it's an is / ought thing. Science call tell us, for example, what an atom bomb is, but it can't tell us what we ought to do with it. That kind of stuff. I think that paves the way for something else. Obviously it's a marketplace of ideas out there ? some convincing, some crazy and scary ? so it's about working out which ones conform to reality as best we understand it, I suppose.

[PaTaito]

I agree that religion should be an educated and informed choice, but to say that poor education correlates with religious belief is an outrageous claim.

The motto of Oxford University ? one of the world's finest educational establishments ? is, The Lord is My Light.

I don't think its outrageous at all.

Perhaps not in the west where education is compulsory, but outside of this...certainly.

That oxford motto doesn't mean much given its roots date back almost a thousand years.

[endo]

I agree that religion should be an educated and informed choice, but to say that poor education correlates with religious belief is an outrageous claim.

The motto of Oxford University – one of the world's finest educational establishments – is, The Lord is My Light.

I think there's certainly some correlation there, as Dirty Sanchez mentions, but you're right that it's not the full story. I find it equally baffling that intelligent, educated people believe in the same gods and religious systems as those who are less educated.

[endo]

I don't think it's controversial so say that there are many questions science can't (and doesn't try to) answer: why is a certain action moral/immoral? What is beauty? Is there an ultimate purpose to existence? etc. For me, it's an is / ought thing. Science call tell us, for example, what an atom bomb is, but it can't tell us what we ought to do with it. That kind of stuff. I think that paves the way for something else. Obviously it's a marketplace of ideas out there – some convincing, some crazy and scary – so it's about working out which ones conform to reality as best we understand it, I suppose.

That's exactly the distinction between science and religion: science seeks to explain what is, religion what 'ought'. Maybe you'd disagree, but some questions don't need answers. For instance, what we 'ought' to do with an atom bomb is utterly irrelevant. It's not a naturally occurring phenomenon. It was created by man for only one purpose. There is no 'ought' about it. You could argue whether it ought to have been invented in the first place, but that's not a religious matter and religious beliefs are not required to debate it.

Beyond that, there are other disciplines, such as philosophy, that attempt to answer the type of questions you mention without any religious/supernatural aspect.

[PaTaito]

I think there's certainly some correlation there, as Dirty Sanchez mentions, but you're right that it's not the full story. I find it equally baffling why intelligent, educated people believe in the same gods and religious systems as those who are less educated.

I think most people believe in some form of spirituality no matter how intelligent(i myself believe there is something mysterious but don't like to label it with man made fantasy). But those that are stupid/naive/gullible whatever, will buy into the BS(most of what is written)that much easier...even extreme views.

[Brad]

It's not that outrageous. Many studies and meta studies have indicated this correlation but statistics can be used to try to prove anything I guess. I remember religious groups pointing out that 55% of American Doctors (presumably fairly intelligent people) believe in a god. That number on its own says most doctors believe in a god but that's lower than the average for America where like 80% of people believe in a god so in that context the figures might be interpreted in a different way and how much can you trust these studies anyway?

[Brad]

I don't think it's controversial so say that there are many questions science can't (and doesn't try to) answer: why is a certain action moral/immoral? What is beauty? Is there an ultimate purpose to existence? etc. For me, it's an is / ought thing. Science call tell us, for example, what an atom bomb is, but it can't tell us what we ought to do with it. That kind of stuff. I think that paves the way for something else. Obviously it's a marketplace of ideas out there – some convincing, some crazy and scary – so it's about working out which ones conform to reality as best we understand it, I suppose.

Oh I agree Science can't tell us everything. But I also think that Religion never has and never will tell us anything. I have my own ideas of what is beautiful, and what is right and wrong and I do it all without religion. I want to know the things science can't (or at least hasn't... yet) tell/told us too but I'd rather accept that I don't know than make something up.