Paris

[Howiee]

Definitely an issue of equating the wrong things. Remember that massive Tsunami in Thailand 10 years ago? A woman I know who had recently (few years) become a strong Christian told my daughter that it was God's way of washing away sin. Yeah, washing away the sins of babies. Now, she wasn't stupid and ignorant because she was Christian and her thoughts and opinions did not represent Christians the world over; she was just stupid and ignorant because that's who she was but she'd referred to her faith to explain the situation, and it's people (stupid people I might add) interpreting that in the wrong way that causes things like that woman who banned Muslims from her beauty salon after the Paris attacks earlier this week. She believed that she knew the reason why that disaster had happened; her religion had the answer for her.

There are many stupid and ignorant Christians out there. I say that as a Christian.

[Brad]

No, tarring a whole group of people with the same brush is what I reject.

I'm definitely with you on this.

Remember that for most people their religious beliefs are instilled in them from a very early age by their parents and their schooling. So, a child's religious beliefs aren't actually their beliefs but their parents'. Shaking off a faith that's been applied to you consistently from such a young age is much more difficult that starting from a clean slate and being presented with the option of all the world's religions or no religion.

[charlesr]

On a trip to Bali earlier in the year, our driver for the week was telling us how he believed the reason for the low crime rate in Bali compared to nearby islands / countries was because 90% are Hindu but areas of Bali with high crime rate are predominantly Muslim and Christian (and nearby islands are 10% Hindu). I'm not sure if his assertions about crime rates are even true, but it was interesting that he made the connection with total conviction. It would make it very easy to blame crime on religion rather than people or government etc. etc.

[Howiee]

with respect, what serious answer to a serious question such as ultimate meaning, has religion given us?

Respect taken

The answers depend on the religion, I suppose. Discerning which is true – if any – is the hard part! Re ultimate meaning, the bottom line for me is, if there is no God, there is no ultimate meaning. But I don't think we need religion to tell us that – many atheist philosophers are quite open about the meaninglessness and purposelessness of life.

[Howiee]

I'm definitely with you on this.

Remember that for most people their religious beliefs are instilled in them from a very early age by their parents and their schooling. So, a child's religious beliefs aren't actually their beliefs but their parents'. Shaking off a faith that's been applied to you consistently from such a young age is much more difficult that starting from a clean slate and being presented with the option of all the world's religions or no religion.

Yeah, possibly. But that only tells us about the nature of family dynamics and sociology – it doesn't tell us anything about whether the parents' beliefs are true or not (the only part people should be concerned with).

[QualityChimp]

The problem with Bordersdown religious debates is it normally ends up as "science is 100% right and forwards mankind, religion is 100% wrong and is what is wrong with the world" with the kind of aggressive inflexibility a religious zealot would (rightly) shouted down for.

If anyone sticks their head up to answer any questions or give an alternative opinion, they get pounced on.

Science is awesome but it's not flawless either.

[Dogg Thang]

Actually, I've had a good few discussions here with Howiee and others and they have been remarkably constructive. At least, I've enjoyed them and I've enjoyed hearing alternative views.

[Howiee]

Actually, I've had a good few discussions here with Howiee and others and they have been remarkably constructive. At least, I've enjoyed them and I've enjoyed hearing alternative views.

They leave me shattered. And bitter. Bitter and shattered.

[Dogg Thang]

Sorry! Now I feel bad...

[Howiee]

Haha. Don't be. I jest (although I do find them a little draining). But I do think it's healthy and important to discuss these things, and listen to other viewpoints.

[endo]

They leave me shattered. And bitter. Bitter and shattered.

You mean battered? Or ****tered!

Bloody swear filter!

[dvdx2]

this is abit long winded, but when it gets going its a pretty good overview of why atheists find routine religion hard to believe (i havent watched it all, but it seems to focus on Christianity - kicks off arounf 2:48; hes not the most likable dude but his points are very interesting and relevant).

Maybe a more contemporary, questioning approach like yours Howiee, would do it more favours. I really do find it genuinely sad though that people actually believe alot of this (or maybe they really dont?), without challenging it and the fact its being passed on to kids as truth, really makes my blood boil!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7xAp0jsLgs

[Asura]

people actually believe alot of this (or maybe they really dont?), without challenging it and the fact its being passed on to kids as truth,

I'm at work so haven't watched that - though there's another part to this.

Some people prefer to believe (or at least, don't entertain the idea their beliefs might not be true) because they are terrified at the bleakness of the alternative.

For instance, I consider myself atheist, but I was raised a Catholic. I found many aspects of life much easier back when I was. I can't speak for other religions, but for Christians, many life difficulties are smoothed over. Death? Not the end. Things are bad? It's OK, you're going to be around forever so things will improve. Friend is terminally ill? It's OK, you'll see her again etc.

Believing frees you of that existential dread.

[Howiee]

You mean battered? Or ****tered!

Bloody swear filter!

Haha!

[Brad]

I think you'd struggle to find another forum on the internet where a religious debate such as we're having here remains as civilised and friendly as it has. It's quite extraordinary and I thank everyone who's participating. I nearly always come away having learned something.