BPX002: This May Be Our Independence Day

[fishbowlhead]

Ha ha ha, no probs, [MENTION=2561]fishbowlhead[/MENTION].

My main concern these days are that I don't believe a word David Cameron says.
He's lied and u-turned about so many things I now think the only reason he wants to stay is that it'll financially benefit him personally, or some mates who'll then look after him.

Even though the Labour Party, SNP, Plaid Cymru and the Lib Dems are all in favour of staying in, I'm suspicious of their motivations to stay in.
I know the NHS is a different matter, but here's a list of over 150 MPs and Lords that have vested interests in medical companies that will benefit if the services are sold off:

http://socialinvestigations.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/nhs-privatisation-compilation-of.html

Thanks for keeping the thread reasonably civil, thus far, gang.
We've managed to avoid the stereotypes of:
Reason to LEAVE: "Dey tuk rrrr juuurrbs"
Reason to STAY: "Only people who think 'they took our jobs' want to leave"

There's more to it on both sides.

I don't see how the people have even allowed this to happen. Shouldn't we be pushing strict laws prohibiting and severely punishing voting on your own investments and interests?

You can hardly govern and lead a country if all your interested in is your next pay cheque.

Reality is very sadly far different.

Sigh.

[charlesr]

You all know this is a smoke-screen right? And the real topic that will actually impact our future will be the TTIP.

[Wools]

Again you need to get the facts a little bit right . Even if the Tories wanted to sell off the NHS (which they don't) the private sector would never offer and doesn't offer a A&E/999 24hr 7 days a week service . That's the one sector of the NHS no private provider either wants to go or has any plans to go near. It's not a area of the NHS they could make money from

So they'll will always be a need for State funding of A&E service in the UK no matter what government we have

Anway, the Tories don't want to privatise the NHS they just want to allow more Private firms to be able to complete for contracts and that sort of thing with-in the NHS . Looking over, how under EU law (and with the trade talks between the EU and USA) we'll have to do that anyway (another reason to vote out) .
Labour opened the NHS to more private firms than any Tory government in History be that for routine operations (like hip and eyes surgery) or signing the biggest Private deals in NHS history !. Never mind the amount of debt it has left the NHS and the tax payers with the P.F.I deals; which have cost and will continue to cost the NHS and us the pay payer billions .... All done under Brown and Blair .

If this new trade agreement goes ahead with the EU and the USA ; our NHS will have to be opened up and USA private firms allowed to bid for contracts . That's overlooking the biggest problems the NHS faces and that abuse of its systems and resources by the general public be that the abuse of A&E 24 services or the day to day bed booking by families not willing to sell off the family home to pay for care or care for their family their self's, or in a lot of cases there not being any care or residential homes to send them too . No government got the balls to sort out those issues , and trust me... that's what crippling the NHS

Please don't tell me to "get the fact a little bit right", it's patronising and condescending to me when you then just reply with a subjective viewpoint with no facts of your own. As someone who has campaigned for health workers and the NHS throughout my life and my Wife is a Ward Sister at a NHS Hospital, I know just a little bit about the NHS and the threat the tories pose to it.

The NHS as an institution and public held company is brilliant. They're one of the best major public health system in the world, are incredibly effective and cost effective and in my opinion, perform one of the greatest duties to human beings. Provide free and brilliant healthcare to any person in Great Britain.

As the tories have starved the NHS for years now and are allowing more contracts to be provided to outside companies, the competition is greater because of the price of the contract and the quality getting poorer as those contractors want to make their money back! The cost Virgin ask for 1 health care assistant (Who can do very little on an active ward as they have basic training, can not administer drugs etc.) is terrifyingly high and because the tories sold the contract, the NHS has to pay that amount or risk being a staff member down. Already dangerous as staff numbers are now so low.

The idea you don't seem to comprehend is that by breaking up NHS Hospitals, relying on outside companies not just for simple services but for staffing on wards, is that the government has to pay more money to them so the investment into public health they've made is being squandered by lining the pockets of Virgin, Nuffield and thousands of others. The quality of healthcare will go down and the NHS as we know it will be finished.

In black & white, privatising the NHS (Which is what the tories are doing) is not a good thing if you believe in public healthcare free at the point of entry or for an efficiently run healthcare system.

EDIT - My problem isn't solely with the tories, it's Labour, Green, Liberal, anyone who threatens the public held responsibility of the NHS.

[Neon Ignition]

The trouble with the NHS is its issues seem unlikely to change regardless of outcome. Even if Labour got back in they never seem to deliver on their ethos and any measures they do implement are the first to go when the tories inevitably regrab power.

[Wools]

The problems with the NHS are small and fixable, it just needs a decent injection of money, a government who are willing to invest in its future and medical professionals to be put in charge.

[Asura]

The problems with the NHS are small and fixable, it just needs a decent injection of money, a government who are willing to invest in its future and medical professionals to be put in charge.

That needs to start, though, with a political push from people who aren't blindly convinced that Thatcherist privatisation is the solution to all the world's problems, like some kind of fanatical religion.

[Wools]

Their time will come. I don't know if Corbyn is the solution but he's the best hope the UK has for a socialist government who puts the needs of the many over the needs of the few.

Hopefully, the tory spin doctors won't try and confuse the easily led and working classes into another tory government. It still astounds me that a party who serves the upper classes had such a sway over the middle, working and lower classes in the past leadership race.

[Team Andromeda]

As someone who has campaigned for health workers and the NHS throughout my life and my Wife is a Ward Sister at a NHS Hospital, I know just a little bit about the NHS and the threat the tories pose to it.

I'm a ward nurse in the NHS and I know full well how bad both Labour and the Tories have been for the NHS..

As the tories have starved the NHS for years now and are allowing more contracts to be provided to outside companies, the competition is greater because of the price of the contract and the quality getting poorer as those contractors want to make their money back!

Sigh... Under Blair we saw the biggest Private deals being done in NHS history, that's a fact . Labour isn't committed to Tory levels of NHS spending for this Parliament and Labour campaigned for less funding to the NHS in the last Parliament. So in actual fact the current Tory party is spending more on the NHS than Labour would have been if they were in Government . In Wales Labour (where Health is devolved) Labour has cut the fuddling to Welsh NHS by some 8% and its running of the service in Wales really isn't that great at all . So I really really doubt the NHS would be any better in Labours hands tbh

Tbh both the Tory party and Labour are not coming clean about the NHS at all . Its funding model was based on based on 1940's problems and 1940's style of funding and where people died way before the age of 70. The current model of funding is just not sustainable , like with the Pensions all Governments pass the buck and do not want to face the real issues

[nakamura]

Blair was a Tory in red. Everyone knows that.

[Team Andromeda]

Blair was a Tory in red. Everyone knows that.

Exactly and under Blair the NHS was opened up to Private firms and huge PFI deals . If money was route cause to all the NHS problems , the NHS would have been fixed long ago . Its not quite that simple really

[QualityChimp]

If it helps anyone make their decision, prize bellend Michael Gove is against staying in the EU...

[Wools]

Sigh... Under Blair we saw the biggest Private deals being done in NHS history, that's a fact . Labour isn't committed to Tory levels of NHS spending for this Parliament and Labour campaigned for less funding to the NHS in the last Parliament. So in actual fact the current Tory party is spending more on the NHS than Labour would have been if they were in Government .

You don't seem to be getting my argument as you keep brining it back to a party war. I don't care who is in charge, as long as the NHS is provisioned for and protected. I don't believe new labour had the NHS's best interests at heart and I certainly don't believe this tory government does either!

[charlesr]

Sooooo TTIP then.

[Team Andromeda]

You don't seem to be getting my argument as you keep brining it back to a party war. I don't care who is in charge, as long as the NHS is provisioned for and protected. I don't believe new labour had the NHS's best interests at heart and I certainly don't believe this tory government does either!

I think both do and do try what they think is best tbh . I just think there is too much demand placed on the NHS for it to ever meet that level of demand really . Its not a simple fix at all and its not all about money . Its a huge combination all loads of issues : Peoples life styles and other factors too outside of the NHS control . I see bed blocking every month with out fail, but there again there simple isn't enough Residential or Care homes outside to house and look after those Patients. I see rank abuse of A&E and people going to A&E for toothache a bloody splinter or worst of the lot just to get free ibuprofen or paracetamol and yet in this politically correct age, no Government wants to deal with it.

[Team Andromeda]

Sooooo TTIP then.

Well that's going to happen and the NHS will have to be opened up . Looking over that, or what the WTT have cost the NHS. I do sometimes thing how many more Hospitals and staff the NHS could have if the ?8 Billion we give the EU each year Net was put to the NHS instead, if we were out (not that I think it would be spent on the NHS mind ;p) . Never mind that, the ?5 Billion tax bill we have to give the EU for Prostitution and Illegal drugs , which was a scandal and a complete joke and where 'Call Me Dave' bent over to EU demands yet again .