BPX002: This May Be Our Independence Day

[The Moleman]

I can see your logic, but I cannot see an ounce of UK influence anywhere in the EU.

Even the British Influence Scorecard, a pro EU propaganda document, cannot mask the fact that we're either vetoed or outvoted on the most serious risks and problems with the UK: Free movement of people, In year budget amendments, TTIP, FTT, CAP...

Seriously, what influence does the UK actually have?

[Protocol Penguin]

It has one vote among 28. Literally better than nothing.

Think of it this way: taking your argument to the extreme, that 1/28th of the vote is "nothing", then no invididual person would see the use in voting for anything ever. Think of the referendum, our votes will be one among literally millions. Is that going to deter me or you from voting in it? Not from the sounds of things. Having part of a say in matters is how democracy works. And being one of 28 in a voting situation is a far stronger position than being one among thousands, or millions.

[Asura]

It has one vote among 28. Literally better than nothing.

Think of it this way: taking your argument to the extreme, that 1/28th of the vote is "nothing", then no invididual person would see the use in voting for anything ever. Think of the referendum, our votes will be one among literally millions. Is that going to deter me or you from voting in it? Not from the sounds of things. Having part of a say in matters is how democracy works. And being one of 28 in a voting situation is a far stronger position than being one among thousands, or millions.

Is there nothing to be said, though, for Britain having more than 10% of the EU's population?

[The Moleman]

Again, I see where you're coming from.

But having 1/28th of a vote in an EU where 25 (90%) of the other members have worse economies and fundamentally different problems to the UK is same as having no vote, no one agrees with us.

How many years did it take to get rid of Abu Hamza and Abu Qatada? How many times did the European Court of Human Rights block their extraditions? did the 1 UK judge among the 28 have any influence there?

No.

[Team Andromeda]

I agree that CAP needs serious reform. But: which of these sounds better?

1. Be outside the EU, but still have to pay the 'membership fee' to trade with the EU, and have no potential say in reforming CAP.

2. Stay in the EU, and be able to get some say in how the money is spent, including pushing for a reform of CAP.

We have little or no say anyway . The Uk been wanting to reform the CAP for decades and nothing is done, infact I remember Blair promising reform for the CAP when giving up the UK rebate . I much rather being out and being able to vote out people who you don't think are doing a good job spending our money

[Protocol Penguin]

Again, I see where you're coming from.

But having 1/28th of a vote in an EU where 25 (90%) of the other members have worse economies and fundamentally different problems to the UK is same as having no vote, no one agrees with us.

How many years did it take to get rid of Abu Hamza and Abu Qatada? How many times did the European Court of Human Rights block their extraditions? did the 1 UK judge among the 28 have any influence there?

No.

OK, if you don't know the difference between the EU and ECHR and the Council of Europe, or are unwilling to learn the basics, then you aren't arguing in good faith and I'll leave it there.

[Protocol Penguin]

We have little or no say anyway . The Uk been wanting to reform the CAP for decades and nothing is done, infact I remember Blair promising reform for the CAP when giving up the UK rebate . I much rather being out and being able to vote out people who you don't think are doing a good job spending our money

We don't have "little or no say", that is a tabloid myth, please try and learn the basics. We have some say, as the EU is a collaboration of 28 nations. No one nation will get its own way on its own, the EU is based on cooperation, not dictatorship.

As for the money going to CAP, well, for open market access, the UK would have to pay a membership fee to the EU if outside it, just as Norway and Switzerland currently do, but have no say in how the money is spent. At least inside the EU, we can have a say in the organsation, and work together with like-minded nations to sort out the mess of the CAP.

[charlesr]

How many years did it take to get rid of Abu Hamza and Abu Qatada? How many times did the European Court of Human Rights block their extraditions? did the 1 UK judge among the 28 have any influence there?

Do you have any examples that would actually affect lots of people? Apart from a small number of deaths every 10 years or so from terrorism (horrible as it is), getting rid of a few people like that via extraditions doesn't impact anyone, even though it sells newspapers.

Our decision on staying or leaving needs to be based on factors that affect vast portions of the UK population.

[Team Andromeda]

No one nation will get its own way on its own, the EU is based on cooperation

Now you're having a laugh.. Tell that to the people of Greece

, but have no say in how the money is spent

Yeah and none listen to us anyway .

and work together with like-minded nations to sort out the mess of the CAP

Like the French give a flying F*%# .

[Neon Ignition]

The question then would be that if we have to pay the fee and have no influence or pay the fee and have an influence worth effectively nothing (assuming voters in that stance are correct), is the UK more negatively affected by the EU's influence on us and this nationa interests (rather than us on them) with us in or out of the union?

[The Moleman]

Do you have any examples that would actually affect lots of people? Apart from a small number of deaths every 10 years or so from terrorism (horrible as it is), getting rid of a few people like that via extraditions doesn't impact anyone, even though it sells newspapers.

Our decision on staying or leaving needs to be based on factors that affect vast portions of the UK population.

This one example will not effect the population it was more about showing that our 3.5% sway in any decision making equates to nothing, even with our own legal system and parliament trying their hardest for almost a decade, spending ?25,000,000 in the process the ECHR simply overruled.

[nakamura]

What 'laws' are people so against that are made in the EU?

[dvdx2]

[QUOTE=nakamura;2252451]What 'laws' are people so against that are made in the EU?QUOTE]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6481969.stm

[nakamura]

Damn them.

[Solar]

What 'laws' are people so against that are made in the EU?

do you mean legislation?
Laws are created in a court with a jury.