BPX002: This May Be Our Independence Day

[Neon Ignition]

Also, todays Boris news update just further paints the blatant picture that at some point he's taking over from Cameron no matter who else runs against him

[nakamura]

Right your article says of 560,000 arriving in 2014 a whopping 214,000 came from the EU. I mean really...enough said.Around 40% of immigration that suddenly becomes controllable, and likely the largest drain on our benefit system out of them all. Maybe it doesn't fix our housing situation in "the now", but it certainly helps going forward and helps us to put the brakes on further overcrowding in a country that is second only to bloody malta. Outside the EU is obviously an entirely different topic, and one that given your admittedly surprising set of stats, also clearly needs attention.

Do you know how hard it is for a non EU citizen to get a visa to live and work here?

[Protocol Penguin]

The **** that non-EU/EEA people have to go through is appalling and inexcusable. I know or have known many mixed nationality couples, what the ones with at least one partner from outside the EU/EEA have to go through is gut wrenching. It's just plain intimidation on many levels. So I'm not keen to have more people and families affected by all that. (I mean, even the citizenship application stuff is already bad even if you are a EU citizen ... seriously awful.)

[Team Andromeda]

Er, yes it does. The Parliament passes legislation

It amends legislation.

As for the Treaty of Lisbon, it wasn't some kind of secret deal like you seem to be suggesting when you say

It was since we didn't have a vote on it. The Treaty of Lisbon was the Constitution for Europe in all but name and when the people vote no the EU does what it always does and just ignore the result and carries on regardless or if you're Irish just send them back to polls untill they vote the way you want

[Team Andromeda]

Do you know how hard it is for a non EU citizen to get a visa to live and work here?

Unless you're a student very hard and its so unfair. Why should people of the EU get special treatment, in most other walks of lives people be using the race card and saying EU policy is racist against non EU citizens .

Mind you I wouldn't use immigration to make us vote either way myself, since while the numbers look large, aren't most of them students anyway?

[endo]

It amends legislation.



It was since we didn't have a vote on it. The Treaty of Lisbon was the Constitution for Europe in all but name and when the people vote no the EU does what it always does and just ignore the result and carries on regardless or if you're Irish just send them back to polls untill they vote the way you want

Parliament can suggest amendments to draft legislation, yes, but it can also reject bills outright. The Commission can't implement legislation without consent of Parliament, it's as simple as that.

The Lisbon Treaty amended the treaties that establish how the EU is set up and functions. How could a popular vote on that possibly work? Everyone in every Member State would have to vote, and what would they vote on? Individual points, the treaty as a whole? And to what end? The EU needs a structure in order to operate. That's what the treaties define. I don't see that that's problematic or that it's undemocratic that there's no vote on it (leaving aside the fact that national legislation isn't subject to the public vote either, but whatevs). The Lisbon Treaty actually introduced the formal procedure whereby a state can withdraw from the Union, so if a country doesn't like it or agree, they can leave. Hey, weird coincidence- isn't that exactly what we're going to have a referendum on?

[Team Andromeda]

but it can also reject bills outright.

And how many times has this happened ?. The Parliament isn't where the power is at all .

Everyone in every Member State would have to vote,

Yes that's called democracy ! . Lets all remember to pass ' Constitution for Europe' every member state had to vote on it and if one member state voted against , that was meant to be it . Eu does what it always does and just ignores the people and carries on. The Lisbon treaty is in all but name the Constitution for Europe.

[nakamura]

Maybe parliament doesn't reject bills because it doesn't really care.

They ignore the people too.

[Wools]

I'm completely in the middle at the moment but will decide as the decision draws near.

I don't see how hard line people can be so black and white with the idea as there's so many facets to the argument. Being with the EU strengthens us in multiple ways but we have to spend a lot of money and time because of it. But what's souring me to the idea of leaving is how people have taken this as a chance to have a pop at immigrants and foreigners, claiming the issue of immigration will go away if we leave. Do they not understand it's not that simple? The UK won't build a wall around the UK to stop people going in, being in the EU is not the reason why immigrants are solely coming across. It's a mixture between the usual flow of people wanting to move to the UK, civil wars in Syria, Africa and parts of the middle east. The reason why people are so hard up and houses are not being built are because the government have cut public spending and benefits, the housing bubble burst in the 2008 crash (Where prices were already out of hand and not sustainable) and new houses have not been built since. Immigrants are the problem? No, our government and the banking system are the problem in that area!

So with that bull**** out the way, why do I want to leave? The UK would have more money but we could easily loose that much through taxes if big businesses pull out of the UK, well, if they ever paid their taxes! If that occurred, they'll be less jobs, less money and we would be crawling back to the EU.

With that in mind, I don't want to leave the EU as the drawbacks could be so severe. But if I see someone else saying immigrants are the problem with being in the EU, I'll punch them in the throat.

[Wools]

Right your article says of 560,000 arriving in 2014 a whopping 214,000 came from the EU. I mean really...enough said.

Around 40% of immigration that suddenly becomes controllable, and likely the largest drain on our benefit system out of them all.

"214,000 came from the EU. I mean really...enough said."

Not really? How many people left the UK to emigrate elsewhere? How many people died in the UK? How many people were born? The UK's population is increasing (Along with every single country in the world) but it would be with or without immigrants.

Also your opinion that immigrants are "likely the largest drain on our benefit system" is not true. Just spin by the Tory government:

"EU migrants make up only a small proportion of the overall benefits caseload. They accounted for 2.5% of benefits the DWP administered in 2014 - mostly out-of-work benefits - in 2014, and 7% of tax credits, based on the HMRC definition discussed above.

The DWP analysis says EU migrants on ?in-work? benefits cost the taxpayer ?530m in 2013. That represents a modest 1.6% of the year?s total tax credit bill."

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/datablog/2015/nov/10/eu-migrants-on-benefits-separating-the-statistics-from-the-spin

[Neon Ignition]

The trouble with the immigrant aspect of the case is that it's ballooned beyond numbers and resources now. Every attack within the EU gets linked to immigration and when something like the Cologne Gropefest takes place it makes the EU look incompetent, the media then launching on to weeks long rants about refugees etc. Sensationalism will definitely hold a bigger sway than facts. It's how the EU aggrevated the matter last year to the point we're at now.

[Dogg Thang]

Sensationalism will definitely hold a bigger sway than facts.

This is so true. This is why there really is no point in getting into a discussion with the Daily Mail and its people. It controls its own narrative as do the people who buy into it. You may as well get into which wizard from Harry Potter will save the economy. It is very hard to engage with in any serious way and yet is damaging in very real terms.

[endo]

This is so true. This is why there really is no point in getting into a discussion with the Daily Mail and its people.

QFT. It's hard to win an argument with an intelligent person, but it's impossible with an ignorant person.

[Neon Ignition]

It's amusing just how blatant the press is with it as well. As soon as the date was set The Guardian stated it was pro-EU and most its articles reflect that stance. The lack of attempt by the press to report anything objectively is embarassing.

[charlesr]

That's why I asked for links to articles that show proper possible pros and cons without the horrendous bias - there's naff all available.