United Kingdom VI: Summer Lovin'

[MartyG]

I don't agree about the two prohibiting the other. Alignment on political (e.g. foreign policy) and/or legislative (e.g. courts) matters is not necessarily the same as economic alignment.

It's not foreign policy that's the issue, it's one of domestic policy impacting on it, like for example, state aid.

[MartyG]

I must say that I do enjoy discussing these things with you, [MENTION=42]MartyG[/MENTION].
I don't necessarily agree with everything you say, but appreciate you trying to take an objective stance on political matters, which takes me out of my bubble.

I have an ambivalent relationship with politics - I find it facinating and yet at the same time extremely aggrevating - I try to look at things from a Spock point of view and follow the logic of legislation and procedure (and there's a lot of it) - but with such matters there are strong feelings on all sides. so it's not always easy - I'd never expect people to always agree with me or indeed expect to change anyone's mind. I'd just encourage people to learn more about how it all works. I enjoy the debate too and there's bound to times when the different PoV don't align, but that just makes things more interesting.

There's the rub, though.

Step out of line and you're fired. Don't join one of the main parties, face minimal chance of getting in.

What's the point of them having votes if all the party members are fired for dissent?
Just say "This is what the party wants" and be done with it without the pretence of democracy.

I can't believe all 340 MPs who voted to pass the Internal Market Bill went to bad last night thinking "We've done democracy proud and are doing the right thing for the UK."

One thing to bear in mind here is that it's really quite the tricky path to get to the point of selection to stand as a candidate for one of the main parties - this will be particularly true in safe seats. If you've gotten to the point where you are an MP candidate, you've already been within the indocrination of the party for years and follow the vast majority of that party's ideals. Whilst as an MP you might not agree with all of them, you probably agree with most of them.

The path to legislation is far more complex than what's seen with the debates in the two houses - The Thick of It, House of Cards - they're closer to the truth than you'd hope to believe. There's probably more influence over port and cigars in a Common's bar than there is on the floor of the debating chamber.

[Golgo]

It's not foreign policy that's the issue, it's one of domestic policy impacting on it, like for example, state aid.

Sorry, but I don't quite follow you. I mentioned foreign policy merely as an example in relation to your point about manifesto areas being in conflict, and which you said made it logical and consistent that the Tories should wish to leave without a deal even though they went into the election promising they had one ready to go. What you've now said doesn't change that, for me. You can diverge on foreign policy or state aid or worker's rights or whether or not to abide the European Court or whatever, but that does mean you then have to diverge on trade deals. The one set does not necessarily prohibit the other. That's why they were in the manifesto. The fact that the Tories have now reneged on the trade deal scenario means they either lied from the beginning (likely) or are simply incompetent at negotiations (also likely). I see no way that this can be interpreted as them being consistent and sticking to the manifesto. And that (phew) brings us back in a roundabout way to where we started with the whipping question, so now I'm going for a lie down...

[MartyG]

My premise is that certain manifesto promises inherently make a FTA next to impossible regardless of the January agreement.

One thing is clear, the oven ready deal that's been banded about was absolutely a lie - the goal of the ERG has always been to leave the EU completely. It doesn't want any kind of alignment with the EU at all, politically, legally or economically. The ERG has been the driving force of Johnson becoming PM.

There was some discussion when Johnson won such a big majority last year, that it would somehow weaken the influence the ERG has, but they still remain a cohesive group inside the Commons.

[Neon Ignition]

Embedded Tweet

Welcome to No Deal

[Cassius_Smoke]

The EU must be wondering what happened to the UK.

[Golgo]

The EU taking legal action against the UK is PR mana from heaven for Johnson and the boys, as well as the Mail and its readership. It will be halloo'ed from the rooftops as another vindication of the rightness of the decision to give johnny foreigner the heave-ho. They just can't lose in this.

[Dogg Thang]

The EU taking legal action against the UK is PR mana from heaven for Johnson and the boys, as well as the Mail and its readership. It will be halloo'ed from the rooftops as another vindication of the rightness of the decision to give johnny foreigner the heave-ho. They just can't lose in this.

I see what you're saying but, if breaking international law can be spun as a positive (and I think you're right that it can in the current climate), that in itself is damning indictment of the country and how far down a path it has gone. But honestly, as happy as some Mail readers might be, the UK does not get to exist in isolation on this planet and looking like total tits on top of everything else is not going to be beneficial for the UK at all. This doesn't lead to good places. The Tories might not lose but the country and some of your neighbours will.

[Golgo]

I see what you're saying but, if breaking international law can be spun as a positive (and I think you're right that it can in the current climate), that in itself is damning indictment of the country and how far down a path it has gone. But honestly, as happy as some Mail readers might be, the UK does not get to exist in isolation on this planet and looking like total tits on top of everything else is not going to be beneficial for the UK at all. This doesn't lead to good places. The Tories might not lose but the country and some of your neighbours will.

I agree completely, but alas the populists currently in the grip of UK - and also US - politics only care about how they look in the eyes of that particularly demented section of the electorate that they've whipped into a frenzy to keep them in power in the short term.

[Dogg Thang]

Yep. It's crazy just how quickly we've slipped into this. Before Marty jumps in to tell me (rightly) that this has been brewing for years, the actual switch, the real change has happened so fast. You just have to rewind five years and very few of us would have predicted where we all are now. It's not like everything was rosy then either but we've undone so much in just a few years.

It's quite depressing.

[MartyG]

It's been brewing at a political level for decades, but I'd agree at a public level this only really became an issue at the forefront of people's mind once there was a referendum. If Cameron hadn't tried to placate the Tory internal problems, people would still be happily going about their day and to just mention one choice benefit, students would still be able to freely study abroad in EU universities.

For all of Farage's bleeting, it had very little impact on the politics overall.

It's no surprise that the EU had launched legal action, but even if they hadn't the steer has been to find a way to blame the EU for the breakdown of the FTA discussions.

[Mayhem]

For all of Farage's bleeting, it had very little impact on the politics overall.

And yet, bizarrely, he actually supports the EU's action here...!

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1311595930236465152

[gambit6613]

Just when you think MP's couldnt get any more stupid. SNP member feels unwell/symptoms for Covid at weekend, takes test, thinks she is feeling better so decides to travel down all the way from Scotland on the train on Monday, gets a positive result when in London. She then travels back again on the train Tuesday morning, knowing she tested positive, putting god knows how many people at risk. I tell you i effing give up.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54379026

Ahh but she has said sorry, so that makes everything ok then. Should be sacked and fined the maximum penalty.

[wakka]

Absolute moron.

[Dogg Thang]

She was testing her eyesight.