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America & the World V: DOGE Business

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    It's a disappointing result. Hard to see how America could so overwhelmingly elect someone so openly nasty and venal, found guilty in civil court of rape, an obvious racist who uses the language of the 1930s to describe non-whites, and all the rest.

    And yet, at the same time, it's kind of easy. It's the economy, stupid. Most people don't pay that much attention to politics. They'll handwave the stuff Trump says and does, or assume it's overhyped or overstated or misinterpreted, because they feel that their daily lives are worse than they used to be and that they're getting worse.

    When they've got the option of a 'change' candidate whose platform is that they will make radical moves to improve the economy and their daily lives, and a continuity candidate whose platform is social issues they don't care about plus vague neolib trickle-down economics that decades have proven do diddly squat for the ordinary man on the street, it's not surprising that they'll turn out in such numbers for the former.

    It doesn't matter that Trump is lying about helping ordinary Americans (which of course he is), because it's still worth taking the chance he might improve things versus getting the certain disappointment of what the Dems will deliver.

    You can treat Trump's win as an indictment of people's basic selfishness - there are far fewer fervently anti-trans, anti-non-white folks than there are those that simply don't care about these issues one way or the other - but it's probably not that constructive. There's not much that can be done about human nature.

    What is probably more useful is to consider how it reflects on mainstream centrist politics in the shape of the Democrats (and for that matter, Labour). This neolib ****, it doesn't work. And it leaves countries vulnerable to fascist demagogues who offer change in any form, because the population has only ever been disappointed by 'stable' centrism.

    If you had an actually radical left platform just like you have a radical right one - a platform that taxed the rich and corporations more, and raised the minimum wage, i.e. one that actually redistributed wealth downwards rather than only upwards - well, the data shows that the majority of Americans would actually agree with it.

    And yet they voted far-right. And that is a damning indictment of the failure of centrist politics.

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      As if the US was ever going to elect a black woman as president.

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        Originally posted by wakka View Post
        They'll handwave the stuff Trump says and does, or assume it's overhyped or overstated or misinterpreted.
        I don't believe this.

        I bought it for many people in 2016. I don't buy it now. Not for a second. They know who he is and they like it.

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          For me it comes down to my belief that most people are much more self-interested than they are interested in politics.

          I think there's a percentage who love who he is, in some cases passionately. I think there's a greater percentage who just don't care. They want the candidate they think will improve their lives and the rest is just noise.

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            Originally posted by fishbowlhead View Post

            Dog Thang, could you do us an animated GIF that symbolises the death of common sense and the rise of dictators? Serious question.
            Will this do?



            There are doubtless a lot of Nazi themed examples.

            If anyone wants a scarily accurate portrait of Trump's last term I'd recommend The Plot Against America.
            Last edited by egparadigm; 06-11-2024, 13:43.

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              Originally posted by wakka View Post
              For me it comes down to my belief that most people are much more self-interested than they are interested in politics.
              It depends on what you define as "politics". For me, most of the stuff spewed out of Trump's mouth isn't it. But they love it and they support it and they know exactly who he is. I don't believe there is any deniability here.

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                Originally posted by wakka View Post
                What is probably more useful is to consider how it reflects on mainstream centrist politics in the shape of the Democrats (and for that matter, Labour). This neolib ****, it doesn't work. And it leaves countries vulnerable to fascist demagogues who offer change in any form, because the population has only ever been disappointed by 'stable' centrism.

                If you had an actually radical left platform just like you have a radical right one... well, the data shows that the majority of Americans would actually agree with it.
                I like the sentiment but the presence or existence of a radical left alternative was ultimately unsuccessful in stifling the rise of the Third Reich and, where Communism reigned, it caused suffering at least equal to that caused by the Nazis.

                But yeah the economic myths of neoliberalism need puncturing sooner rather than later.

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                  Not saying that there is any deniability for Trump voters, for the record. I consider them fully culpable.

                  As for communism causing suffering, there's quite a couple of gulfs between neoliberalism, socialism and the type of managed economy communism used by the USSR and Mao-era China.

                  Anyway, to be honest guys, I'm tired, I'm just putting across a perspective, I honestly can't be bothered to get into deep debates on this. Hope my post is at least a little fodder to read in the thread even if you disagree.
                  Last edited by wakka; 06-11-2024, 14:01.

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                    Might watch Civil War again for a depiction of America split down the middle and imploding.

                    I don't mean the Marvel one. If I wanted to watch a Marvel film, I'd watch Infinity War, the one where all the heroes lose and the guy who's an unnatural colour wins.

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                      Originally posted by wakka View Post
                      Not saying that there is any deniability for Trump voters, for the record. I consider them fully culpable.

                      As for communism causing suffering, there's quite a couple of gulfs between neoliberalism, socialism and the type of managed economy communism used by the USSR and Mao-era China.

                      Anyway, to be honest guys, I'm tired, I'm just putting across a perspective, I honestly can't be bothered to get into deep debates on this. Hope my post is at least a little fodder to read in the thread even if you disagree.
                      Sorry if my scepticism added to your tiredness. I did feel genuinely hopeful when I read the book I linked to before. So if you need lifting up give it a read when you're up to it.

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                        Originally posted by egparadigm View Post

                        Sorry if my scepticism added to your tiredness. I did feel genuinely hopeful when I read the book I linked to before. So if you need lifting up give it a read when you're up to it.
                        Thank you, I will!

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                          A friend of mine posted something on social media that hit hard:

                          “Why is it always a bloody lurch to the RIGHT!? Why can't we have a turbulent 4 years of unchecked socialism!?

                          Just unhinged hope-filled public spending and welfare program investment. Pure unchecked
                          infrastructure advancements. Wild, untamed betterment of people and their communities. Frenzied derailment of the carbon industries. Deranged support of green technologies.​”

                          He has a point.

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                            Forgive me for stating the obvious, but of course it’s because that wouldn’t favour the controlling class. A lurch to the right generally has a big emphasis on directing the anger of the proletariat at the poorest and most vulnerable in society, instead of the real culprits.

                            Just like in the UK, where we’re told to blame the people in the small boats - but it’s the people on the big ones who we should be worried about.

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                              People believe the Earth is flat, that we didn't land on the moon and climate change is made up to tax people - why are people surprised Trump won again?

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                                I’m not surprised. But I’m still very disappointed.

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