It feels like the end game here is Israeli taking Palestine and removing/eradicating its entire populous, whether that kicks off conflicts with other Arab nations is the next major problem for Israeli, i cant see it ending well.
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The most influential/wellbeing Arab nations are likely to stay out of this conflict. It will serve them well to have the most publicy violent extremists out of the picture as they want to appease the rest of the world as much as possible as their major source of income is slowly eroding away.
The split between Sunni and Shia Muslims is also at play here, not to mention countries following Sharia laws opposed to those with a more liberal approach.
Having Israel "solve" their situation by annihilating their opposition will have repercussions throughout the Arab world, and many Arab nations will profit from it, in one way or another.Comment
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You read their original statement correctly, which they have now changed, because yep it was like something trumple wrote on his own after being left alone with his twit account for 3 seconds. Which even an extremist super violent, super nuts terroist group realised was nut nut.Originally posted by charlesr View PostComment
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The problem is when you one side takes religion out of it (the PLO/Fatah) and gave up their armed struggle during the Oslo peace accords, the other side doesn't abide by the peace accords, which in turn is what only increases the prominence of Hamas i.e its pointless to give up arms, since PLO has done so and we are in no better position than what we before Oslo.
The other thing to note is Hamas does not represent all Palestinians, much like the IRA didn't represent all Irish, but the rhetoric you get from western world leaders and others that support the bombing of Gaza is that they do. The reason it is easier (or at least should be) to criticise Israels bombing of Gaza is they are supposed to better than a terrorist organisation but there killing of innocent Palestinians shows they are no different.
Any civilised person, government or group should be against the collective punishment of civilian, otherwise we are not different from the monsters we so very much trying to defeat.Comment
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Denying Israel has done some shocking things to the residents of Gaza is utter denial similar to those who deny the Holocaust happened. Problem is, as with almost everything else in this chaos, it serves both sides' purposes: anti-semites can hide behind "reasonable criticism of Israel" and unreasonable politicians hide behind "all criticism of Israel is anti-semitism". Another mess.
It's not about one god or another, it's a fight for survival, for power.
Hamas need support. The more brutal Israel are, the more support Hamas have on the ground. The more Hamas are seen to be the plucky underdog fighting Israel, the more support Hamas have politically. No fight against Israel, no need for Hamas.
Israel has a largely far right government. It has the same support issues as Hamas. The more powerful Israel's enemies are seen to be, the more support Israel's government has on the ground. The more Israel is seen to be the victim of terrorist violence, the more support Israel has politically. When Israel has no enemies, the far right is no longer needed.
With Hamas as disruptive force it's near impossible to reach the former goal of a two-state solution, a solution Netanyahu and his far-right government are opposed to themselves. In the end you get two political enemies somehow supporting and depending on each other.
Netanyahu is already being heavily criticized for the weak military presence on the Gaza border (they were focusing on the West Bank instead), and actually read a quote from a Hamas representative that he was surprised at the scale of the Hamas operation and its success. He had expected some minor fighting amid fierce resistance from Israeli forces, but instead they were able to deeply invade the country and wreak havoc. So now Netanyahu is forced - not that he wouldn't like to do that anyway - to retaliate hard to strengthen his own domestic position. I wouldn't be surprised to see them flatten Gaza once and for all. And so the cycle perpetuates.
And of course there's already attacks from Hezbollah in the north and shelling of Syria from the Golan Heights. Business as usual. See the news from 40 years ago, nothing has changed, basically.
i know I don't normally rely on such sources, but Wiki says otherwise, albeit the US figure is up for debate.Originally posted by Brad View Post
Lie with passion and be forever damned...Comment
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I think talk of Hamas being an underdog and a disruptive force is a dangerous road to go down, underdogs don't murdered civilians in cold blood at music festivals before taking hostages that they then murder murder and parade their mutilated lifeless half naked body's thorough the streets like they did with Shani Louk Yesterday. its not just cold blooded murder its full on war crimes that go beyond a simple conflict over land.Comment
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I direct you towards Amnesty’s summary of Israel’s policies.Originally posted by Lebowski View Post
And why I note that both sides are as bad as each other and continually perpetuate the conflict.Israel’s continuing oppressive and discriminatory system of governing Palestinians in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) constituted a system of apartheid, and Israeli officials committed the crime of apartheid under international law. Israeli forces launched a three-day offensive on the occupied Gaza Strip in August during which they committed apparent war crimes. This compounded the impact of a 15-year ongoing Israeli blockade that amounts to illegal collective punishment and further fragments Palestinian territory. Israel escalated its crackdown on Palestinians’ freedom of association. It also imposed arbitrary restrictions on freedom of movement and closures that amounted to collective punishment, mainly in the northern West Bank, ostensibly in response to armed attacks by Palestinians on Israeli soldiers and settlers. The year saw a rise in the number of Palestinians unlawfully killed and seriously injured by Israeli forces during raids in the West Bank. Administrative detentions of Palestinians hit a 14-year high, and torture and other ill-treatment continued. Israeli forces demolished al-Araqib village in the Negev/Naqab for the 211th time. A further 35 Palestinian-Bedouin towns in Israel were still denied formal recognition and residents faced possible forcible transfer. Authorities failed to process asylum claims for thousands of asylum seekers, and imposed restrictions on their right to work.Last edited by Mayhem; 11-10-2023, 16:47.Lie with passion and be forever damned...Comment
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Yup theirs disgusting things going on on both sides, i just think it’s dangerous to start using the phrases underdog and disruptive to describe one side of this conflict.Comment
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[MENTION=368]Mayhem[/MENTION] the wiki you linked literally says that USA homes 51%of the Jewish population
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No, it doesn't, re-read the paragraph. It's saying 51% of non-Israeli Jews that are eligible to become Israeli citizens under the Law of Return live in the US
Further down it notes there are 6.3 million Jews living in Israel, and 5.7 million Jews living in the US...
Note I didn't say they were, but how they could be seen to be, certainly in terms of sheer military might, the odds are against them compared to Israel.Originally posted by Lebowski View PostLie with passion and be forever damned...Comment
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Probably the best and honest take on things
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He's on the money and it's nice to see how he cuts through very directly to make sure everyone knows it. It's a two wrongs situation and they're never going to make a rightComment
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The death toll in Gaza now equals the death toll in Israel since SaturdayComment
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I'm so happy it is an Israeli making those points as it is so on point but none of the media wants to cover it in any detail.Originally posted by KIT786 View Post
Israel have brought this on themselves to a large degree and there are some in the country that also think this -
Last edited by smouty; 12-10-2023, 08:33.Comment
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