BPX079: Separation Anxiety

[Cassius_Smoke]

I've avoided Jackson because the belief of his guilt is like a religion now.
'I don't need to see evidence, I just BELIEVE he's guilty'
I don't want to derail this thread with him.

Holywood is a cluster **** for abusers. They give a free pass to some, while actually nailing others. It's all built on who you know. Ezra must have some powerful friends.

[Asura]

Ezra must have some powerful friends.

I don't even know what he's accused of. Stories I've looked at have omitted any real detail. No idea who he knows but it's presumably someone high-up.

[Cassius_Smoke]

I don't even know what he's accused of. Stories I've looked at have omitted any real detail. No idea who he knows but it's presumably someone high-up.

It seems to have been very down played.
All I know is he kidnapped(?) a girl(?) and the FBI launched a manhunt for him. I mean the FBI launching a manhunt for him is about the most we know for sure, and they don't do that for just anything. I can only assume he's the son of a senator or something.

[Neon Ignition]

I think with Miller, had The Flash not been in the can, things may have panned out differently. There are a lot of instances but they nearly all take place within a six month window and when WB pulled them in over it they submitted to mental health treatment that I think is still ongoing and there have been no instances since. That being said, Miller is very... close to a 19-20 year old that they have known since she was 12 years old, that hasn't killed their career largely because she 100% backs them at every turn

[QualityChimp]

With Kevin Spacey, he's had a number of allegations of sexual assault made against him.
Every single one has been dismissed by the court.
The people making the complaints either tampered with evidence (deleted text messages), made inaccurate statements about the events, refused to identify themselves or died before the case was concluded.

He's back in court this month in the UK, pleading not guilty to four counts of sexual assault against three complainants and an additional seven charges all related to a single complainant.

My point is that he's not been charged for any of these allegations (yet). I know not being found guilty isn't proof of innocence, but we're all (me included) thinking "There's no smoke without fire" even though he's never been charged with anything.

People have gone from saying "He's an amazing actor that raises the quality of anything he's in" to "I always knew there was something creepy about that guy" despite never actually met him. We've made our minds up on what others have said about him or characters he's played in films.

[Lebowski]

Context is definitely key, I'm not going to be listening to Glitters stuff etc but on the flip side a film with a problematic actor is easier to roll with because as others have said it's less singularly about that one individual.

Jacksons stuff is easy because the claims are highly likely BS against him (and the media clearly doesn't genuinely buy into them either) whilst the likes of Saville are more clear cut. It's interesting though as to how some celebrities get 'second chances' whilst others with less major claims against them don't.

I'd say that it comes down to cultural worth, its a lot easier to get rid of someone Like Philip Schofiled a daytime TV presenter, than it is to get rid of a musician like Jackson who's music spans decades, he has had cases but has never been officially charged with anything.

Being guilty doesn't always cancel you as a musician either take Chris Brown, he was charged with assault and battery of his then girlfriend Rhianna he almost killed her left her in a horrible state. You would think that this would be enough to be rid this horrible individual, nope hes as popular as ever with male and female fans despite being a complete and utter scumbag.

[Neon Ignition]

I think with Spacey, he's not been helped by a notable void of support by those around him which furthers the impression something isn't right. That and the weird videos he's put out in response but at the same time it's also easy to believe the tales that he's a very egotistical actor and in that context those things are easier to imagine. If he wins the case against him it's hard to see him making a comeback just because this has gone on so long with so little movement of support around him

[QualityChimp]

I think with Spacey, he's not been helped by a notable void of support by those around him which furthers the impression something isn't right. That and the weird videos he's put out in response but at the same time it's also easy to believe the tales that he's a very egotistical actor and in that context those things are easier to imagine. If he wins the case against him it's hard to see him making a comeback just because this has gone on so long with so little movement of support around him

So other people not coming out in support is now damning evidence of his guilt?

As in my previous post, we're totally filling in the blanks to make our own conclusions.

I happen to agree with you and I think he's going to be unable to out run all of these accusations forever, but I think we need to be aware why we think that. Sometimes it's based on fact sometimes it's based on rumour, but we totally accept it as fact.
The Great Wall of China is the only man-made structure visible from space or Captain Pugwash had Seaman Stains as a character!

His career is over though, no doubt.

I think we also need to look at how we treat celebrities.
We raise them up on a platform, making them seem flawless.
Then a story comes out and it's a revelation that they dare to be imperfect human beings and we absolutely relish seeing their fall from grace.

Again, that's not the case for the obvious criminals, but more applicable to those grey areas.

[Cassius_Smoke]

Yeah I agree with QC. I'm actually doing the same thing as all the Jackson haters, by just assuming Spaceys guilt with no evidence or ruling against him.

[QualityChimp]

Cheers Cassius.

I don't want to seem like I'm apologising for Spacey's alleged behaviour, I'm trying to say sometimes we need to look at why we think a certain way about them.

I find that some celebrities are forgiven for their behaviour and I find that wrong too.

I was with friend in their car, driving back from a wedding, listening to a classic rock mix and we both agreed to skip Eric Clapton as "Layla" as it's overplayed, but I remembered him being a bit of a dick about being anti-vax but some other stuff too.
Looked it up and not only was he a drug and alcohol addict and made racist comments, but he hit and raped his wife at the time.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/eric-clapton-vaccine-lockdown-racist-comments-1239027/

Not sure how he still has a career.

[Neon Ignition]

Nope, not that a lack of supporters means that Spacey is guilty, just that it doesn't help him to appear isolated. During his darkest period of the accusations against him Depp had several notable people voice their support of him, and post trial and being exposed as a serial liar and abuser Heard still has vocally supportive people in her corner whereas Spacey has nothing. I do wonder if its odd House of Cards themed videos were an attempt to humourously respond via that shows fanbase but it backfired even more, easily done as well given the nature of his character on the show and that accusations came from that set also

[Protocol Penguin]

On the issue of M. Jackson, I’ve always thought that 1.) he’d be the easiest person in the world to stitch up as being a wrong’un (objectively he was a prize weirdo) 2.) he’d have the financial means at his disposal to cover up being a wrong’un, including posthumously, if he was a wrong’un. We’re unlikely to ever know the truth on this one, and I understand why people who actively try and avoid his music/games/film.

[Dogg Thang]

And in a way, that ties into Neon Ignition's point on Spacey and I agree. I didn't read it that he was seeing it as guilt just because he's weird or people weren't flocking to defend him. More that he could be guilty or innocent of the crimes he is accused of and yet something still isn't quite right. And for me, it's the same with Jackson. Probably not guilty but that guy was not quite right and his own words definitely didn't help.

So with Spacey, even in a situation where he is entirely innocent of the actual crimes, it could end up being a situation where not a lot of people actually want him back. It's a loss of a great actor though. I feel that with Jonathan Majors now. I have no idea about his actual crimes or guilt but it will be such a huge waste of talent if it's all true - he's an incredible screen presence.

But you can see from this conversation there is more to this than simple guilt or innocence. Some guilty wife-beaters have been allowed a happy career. Others who have just a bit of a stench about them and might not be guilty of anything serious can fall off the radar quickly. This is messy stuff and much of it probably shouldn't play out in public... and yet it's clear that, in most cases, the private industries don't self-regulate well.

[Asura]

On the issue of M. Jackson, I’ve always thought that 1.) he’d be the easiest person in the world to stitch up as being a wrong’un (objectively he was a prize weirdo) 2.) he’d have the financial means at his disposal to cover up being a wrong’un, including posthumously, if he was a wrong’un. We’re unlikely to ever know the truth on this one, and I understand why people who actively try and avoid his music/games/film.

I've always wondered...

I didn't know him, and I've never met anyone who did, nor those people who have expressed that he did awful things to them.

But part of me has always felt something similar to this, [MENTION=15749]Protocol Penguin[/MENTION], in that he was such an undeniably weird person, who was, himself, the victim of a vicious, abusive father and the exploitation of Hollywood, that it would be difficult to parse things. It's like if a woman accused Tomonobu Itagaaki of something; as the creator of Dead or Alive people would draw conclusions, sight-unseen, however wrong that would be.

But going back to MJ... There's a line in Bojack Horseman where a person says he's got the stunted worldview of a 24-year-old because he was 24 when he became rich, famous & successful, and she says that when people do that, most of them stop growing. Life no longer challenges them and without those difficult situations to force them out of their comfort zone, they can use their wealth to stay there.

After Jackson died, they auctioned off all of his possessions. People may have forgotten, but there was a 3D walk-around website where you could view his home arcade, because they were selling everything in it; the machines, the decor, everything. And this arcade... MJ, as it turns out, was one of the world's foremost collectors of arcade machines. He had a functioning R360. A full 4-player setup for the X-Men, with the special widescreen display. Original cabs for all the pivotal games you might name as an arcade-game fan. If you remember it, he had it.

The Bojack thing made me think about that, because MJ emancipated himself from his abusive father as a teen, and it wasn't long before his career shot into the stratosphere. In a sense, did he ever stop being a teenager, in his own mind? Was he always trying to retrieve that childhood that was taken from him? It's not hard to imagine him, sitting on that 4-player X-Men cab in his amazing arcade in the cavernous Neverland ranch, in the liminal setting of an arcade, a place normally crowded with happy, entertained people - alone.

If you believe his victims (and I'm not saying I don't), perhaps that thought makes you happy. I dunno. But it doesn't change the fact that he was, at the core of it, a "weirdo", and for all these reasons, I don't think we'll ever truly know what happened or didn't happen behind closed doors.

[Cassius_Smoke]

I don't believe MJ did anything with kids and here my logic.

When Weinstein, Epstein and Savlle were finally caught not only did a large number of victims come forward, but it was known in all three cases, as an open secret. MJ open the doors to Neverland for sick and needy children, and in the decade he lived there probably a thousand kids passed through. These were vulnerable children. So even if he did anything to only 1% of them, where are they all? You'd think Leaving Neverland would open the floodgates, but it hasn't. And now he's dead, where are all the mutterings of people who knew him saying 'Oh yes, we knew he was a bad one' like people did with Savlle.
Plus the FBI investigated him for 2 years and found nothing.

No way his estate is continuing paying people off to keep them quiet, that some conspiracy theory level BS. You think the US Tax office isn't going to question why money is going to random people? The paper trail would be picked up like the Panama Papers were.