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Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne

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    #61
    After 43 hours and not yet near the end (I guess), I'm putting this title back a bit for the slack season next year. I think I can give you some serious opinions.

    Since I'm training myself to analyse games, I won't go too deep into the story or explain specific features, but will instead try to point out SMT:N's biggest design flaw IMHO. It might be a little abstract and hard to follow, but assuming you do, my spoiler-free critique should hopefully do a better job letting you recognize whether you'll be ok with the underlying mechanics or not - in the long term.

    So here I go:
    SMT:N's battle focuses very much on data - specifically, demon properties. These data are the foundation of your game. All your actions, the actual game-PLAY, what you DO, stand or fall with what you KNOW about your enemy. Your tactic is only as good as your data is appropriate in a given battle.

    But since knowing something is not fun unless you are actually utilising the knowledge and benefitting from it, this data-driven approach becomes a problem in SMT:N as data-gathering in this game is not a gameflow-improving but almost a punishing move.

    In order to adjust your party to the enemies, the only possibility is to switch your members. The properties of your main hero cannot be adjusted on the fly at all. So it all comes down to preparations, and one often has to make up or even suffer for not knowing things one couldn't have known.

    Major instances of this problem are:
    - For your main hero, you have to irreversibly decide for or against abilities without necessary knowing them, let along having tried them

    - Getting your party right - part of the preparation - can be tedious, too. One important game element in SMT is the demon fusion, but the problem is that the challenge here is less to make the right decision, but rather to struggle long enough with the user interface just to actually get your intended result.

    - Switching members in fight results in wasted turns. You see how adjusting your party to your enemy becomes a penalty? Even before any tactical mistakes (those are what should be punished)? Plus, switching is only good if you actually have appropriate members, otherwise get ready to backtrack, reorganise and do some leveling.

    - For bossfights, you learn to generally "give up" your first try just to check out the situation - SMT:N literally incorporates "game over"/ "load game" into the play, even though it's a significant break in gameflow.

    With all that said, I don't intend to bash the game. I have had quite some fun with this game and also still want to finish it because it's stylistically so well done and the battles can admittedly be very rewarding - if you do it right. It's just that the game forces you to learn it the hard way.

    I'd be glad to hear any critique on my critique
    Last edited by Akujiki; 07-12-2004, 21:15.

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      #62
      Thank you, Akujiki!
      Your comments are very much appreciated.

      Everything you said pushes me further away from getting the game.
      Those irreversible decisions without knowing what you actually decide for or against especially make me think twice about buying it.

      I mean I can work myself into simulations and other complex games (VF4), but for RPG games I want entertainment from start to finish, and a deep combat system can contribute to that if it is done right.
      However, making me play the game three times before I really know what weird demon-world system they implemented is definitely not so appealing to me.

      It is a fine line and maybe that game is just not (<here it comes:>) 'my cup of tea'.

      I think if the game was cheaper though I?d give it a try, as I still like the setting very much.

      Now I need to find another RPG that isn?t infected with too many spikey-hair, big-eyed creatures.
      Any suggestions? (besides FFX / X-2)

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        #63
        I don't mind the trial and error method with some of the harder demons, I'm not too keen on RPGs that are a walkover and it's fun to play a challenging game. I'm up to the part where fight the three demons in a row to prove your 'innocence'.

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          #64
          Is everyone here playing this on hard? I know Saurian is...
          I'm playing it on normal and I'm not having much trouble. I'm not particularly good at RPG's either, or spend too much time thinking about strategies. I've only spent a little bit of effort getting a slightly balanced party (some physical guys, some with healing spells, some support spells, some elemental attacks etc) and try to keep it balanced when fusing. I've died a couple times on some of the bosses until I work out what works on them and what doesn't, but normal battles are a pushover. Dunno, maybe I've been lucky or levelled up too much.

          I'm at level 58 I think, 40 hours in. I'm now at Yoyogi Park and I've also done 1st and 2nd Kalpa and the 4 riders. Although I've recently put it on hold since Paper Mario and Metroid Prime Echoes arrived.

          Anyway I would definitely recommend it to anyone, even occasional RPG players who don't like spending an enormous amount of effort working out strategies, since I am one myself and I'm enjoying it immensly. It really is a very unique RPG, and it's nowhere near as complicated as Disgaea or Phantom Brave.

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            #65
            Nice breakdown on the games weaker points Akujiki. I agree with basically everything you said. I put it on hold a while back because of GTA and a new/old AES but intend to get back into it later this week. Maybe I should really order that guidebook now, it certainly helped improve my enjoyment of Xenosaga and FFX.

            One question and a bit off topic, are any of you having problems getting into other RPG's since playing SMT ? I booted up Star Ocean the other day and I found the generic characters and initial setting to be extremely offputting. None off the class or style of SMT and it just feels like a by the nr. RPG with high prod. values. I haven't played it sufficiently but the initial bits are almost insultingly generic.

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              #66
              Thanks Shibusawa Jr. Good to hear that my insights are not too far off and that I even managed to put my thoughts in understandable English

              Speaking of guidebooks, some random thoughts ... If guidebooks help improving your enjoyment of RPGs rather than spoiling them, doesn't that mean that RPGs are fun less for "figuring out stuff", but more for simply "being strong"? Wouldn't it be better to make the aspect "act well" more important than "have the right things"? Is that the reason why Zelda's formula "think and act well + sense of growth (main reward in RPGs)" works so well?

              What do you think? Maybe I'm too tired and just babbling...

              P.S. I, too, think SO3 is extremely flat (gave up after 4 hours). Haven't looked into other RPGs recently, though.

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                #67
                anyone still playing this?

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                  #68
                  Yeah, I'm close to the end. It's been "on hold" for about a month but I plan to get back to it when I have some time, probably in a few weeks from now.

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                    #69
                    I have just started this and got to say I love it. Im constantly planning my day now so I can get a few hrs in each day, I love the story and the fusing demons - bwahahahaha.

                    The visuals are superb also, I have to say this has restored my faith in RPG's(it all went a bit pear shaped for me after SOM) so much so that I also have La Pucelle and Disgaea on the shelf waiting to be cracked open.

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                      #70
                      It is brilliant isn't it? The story (I just wish there was a little bit more of it), the graphics/art/styling, game mechanics, difficulty level, everything about this game is close to perfection. I'm grateful to Saurian for bringing it to my attention, I would've missed it otherwise.

                      I'm sure you know that already, but Disgaea and La Pucelle are a completely different type of game to SMT:N. The one I'm waiting for now is Digital Devil Saga, out it exactly one month from now in the US.

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                        #71
                        This game has totally griped me and Im loving it to be honest - and I need advice now:

                        I need to level up as I have met the matador and cant get anywhere near beating him. Im currently at Lv.14 and approx 9 hrs in.

                        Is there somewhere in the game where I can fight alot in order to level up quickly.

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                          #72
                          tbh I haven't tried to find ways to level up fast, or spend too much time levelling in general. I just tend to stick around the most recently unlocked areas so that the monsters are challenging (although if you go back to earlier areas you might encounter stronger enemies than originally as well). If you've unlocked the first kalpa try doing that.

                          In this game I've found that working out the right strategy for beating bosses is a lot more important that simple brute-force levelling. So for the matador I think you need things like fog-breath or sukunda to lower his stats (he's the guy with the amazing agility iirc) and spells that increase your stats.

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                            #73
                            and don't forget "force" resistance or absorbtion.

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                              #74
                              I finally leveld up to 18 and getting on ok with the matador but fiding it hard to beat him. I think I have to basicly keep restoring health and using physical attacks. One thing I have noticed is it takes alot of patience to beat him as you have to restore health a couple of times in a row then attack him.

                              I did find the underpass a very good area to level up in case anyone is interested.

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                                #75
                                Hey guys does anyone know where i can import this game from?
                                Or if there is a store in central london that sells imported games? ( other then CEX )

                                I just read what you were posting about the game,looks like an amazing rpg! Can't
                                wait to play it. Hopefuly its still in stock

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