Shadow of the Colossus

[El Leone]

Oblivion is a second gen 360 game that uses an absolute tiny fraction of what the machine is capable of.

Wow, didnt take long for second gen games to come eh? Its still very much first gen games at the moment, I would say even games like GRAW and Fight Night 3 are 'proper' first gen makes (due to developers actually having some time with the final kits, unlike the launch titles).

Yeah, I need to get SOTC, but alas it seems rare to find wher I live

[EvilBoris]

Maybe I should of said second wave then

[Tig]

I think we could draw comparisons between SotC and certain survival horror titles...

Take a survival horror like the Silent Hill series, or maybe the GC Resident Evil remake... the controls are very clunky, the combat is dreadful, and the camera obstructs the gameplay. But these games are heralded as great examples of the genre, and they remain much loved today.
Are gamers just blinkered? Or is it that the beautiful art design and fantastic atmosphere in these games successfully make up for their mechanical failings?

In these cases (and SotC) I think it's not so much style over substance as style == substance

[EvilBoris]

In these cases (and SotC) I think it's not so much style over substance as style == substance

But is that enough to be a game?, if the style is the main substance of the game, then why bother actually making it as a game, why not just release a 6 hour long DVD of the game's content?

and at least the likes of those games, they have a reasonably involving story that continues throughout the rest of the game. You could easily see the whole of SotC's story in 20 minutes , in fact you can easily see/ the entirety of the game as a whole in half an hour.

[Sony Fanboy]

then why bother actually making it as a game, why not just release a 6 hour long DVD of the game's content?

You could say the same for every RPG or action game with a story.

Regarding SotC, I can't think of many other PS2 games with a consistantly low frame rate - that Godai Elemental Forces game by Eidos comes to mind.

[EvilBoris]

You could say the same for every RPG or action game with a story.

Not really as the story in SotC only takes up about 20 minutes of "play".

At least you get 6 hours of story out of Final Fantasy whatever or MGS1/2/3 plus whatever gameplay there actually is.

[Tig]

But is that enough to be a game?

Probably not
I could never be bothered with the old RE games for that reason... not enough 'game' in there I felt.
Although I knew people who adored the series for its atmosphere, and I appreciate that for them the atmosphere was enough to make the game.

From what I've played of SotC though, I personally rather enjoy the gameplay in addition to the beauty of it. Scaling each colossus is an enjoyable bite-sized challenge. A bit easy perhaps... and with the occasional control/camera issue.
But so far I've found a simple, enjoyable game beneath the atmosphere and artistry, which I couldn't get from a 6 hour FMV

[EvilBoris]

I just found it all rather samey, Climbing and defeating a colossus was fun the first time and there were 1 or 2 other spectacular battles, but all the rest were very plain. The game also suffered from being padded out with a huge bland environment; people moaned about the same thing happnening in Wind Waker , but failed to even acknowledge it in SotC.

unning around those massive fields was just a boring waste of my time, I'd rather be doing something interesting. It was clear that the developers had shoe horned in the Sword "arrow" in order to give you some idea of where to go, but then that suffered plenty of problems of its own, it was like playing a slow boring version of Crazy taxi between battles

Also the claims that this game was so highly original frustrated me as I've seen it all before.

[the_dude]

Please ignore, wrong thread. Sorry

[MrDo]

Also the claims that this game was so highly original frustrated me as I've seen it all before.

Just out of interest Boris, name another game like it?

[EvilBoris]

Well The Climb-up-big-monster-and-Stab-them-in-weak-point thing has been done in several games before, Galleon had a couple of bosses like it, as the 2nd Prince of Persia game, Resident Evil 4 had it in a few fights to a certain extent too.
Then you have the big open enviroments that have been done in too many games to mention , I'll say Ocarina of time for now, plus that had a horse to ride.

I just always had the feeling that there was a big part of SotC missing that they had forgotten about, I think that they really needed to have proper levels , whether its castle platforming or some puzzles before each collossus. If you could actually merge Ico and SotC into one game, I think that it would of had the potential to be alot better.

Each collossus was a boss fight, but there was no level, Sonic would of been boring as hell if it was just 20 bosses in a row with nothing in between, as would *insert japanese Schmup* or Doom

[MrDo]

Well The Climb-up-big-monster-and-Stab-them-in-weak-point thing has been done in several games before, Galleon had a couple of bosses like it, as the 2nd Prince of Persia game, Resident Evil 4 had it in a few fights to a certain extent too.
Then you have the big open enviroments that have been done in too many games to mention , I'll say Ocarina of time for now, plus that had a horse to ride.

I just always had the feeling that there was a big part of SotC missing that they had forgotten about, I think that they really needed to have proper levels , whether its castle platforming or some puzzles before each collossus. If you could actually merge Ico and SotC into one game, I think that it would of had the potential to be alot better.

Each collossus was a boss fight, but there was no level, Sonic would of been boring as hell if it was just 20 bosses in a row with nothing in between, as would *insert japanese Schmup* or Doom

I was talking about a whole game like SOTC, not ideas it has in common with other games. Eveyone of those games you mention (Zelda, Resident Evil, etc), it isn't your primary objective to seek out 20 or so bosses. There's no other game out there where you have to seek out 20 or so bosses one after another, with no other characters inbetween boss fights. That's why people highly regard the game as original.

[Tig]

I just always had the feeling that there was a big part of SotC missing that they had forgotten about, I think that they really needed to have proper levels , whether its castle platforming or some puzzles before each collossus.

Have you considered that this was why the game was praised for originality?
Yes, we've all seen big monsters and big feilds before - but never before in this combination, stripped of the level structure, and with the obligatory side orders of block-pushing and trinket collecting done away with.

Edit: Mr do beat me to it

running around those massive fields was just a boring waste of my time, I'd rather be doing something interesting.

I think that just comes back to the thing about atmosphere in games - whether you consider it to be a dominant / insignificant factor of the overall experience. If you play games for the pure gameplay, the mechanics, then the field sections of SotC are indeed a complete waste of time. They're nothing but sightseeing.

Although for me, I actually enjoy that. One time I pointed my horse in a random direction and rode for 20 mins, just to see where I'd turn up, and what I'd see. But then I enjoyed the sailing in WW too. Although in that game it did get stale towards the end... if the same occurs with SotC I'll get back to you

[Concept]

You read the first few pages, its just people slating it for all of the flaws, later on they have turned 360 degress and are raving about it as if it is a zenith of game design.

I'm inclined to disagree. Throughout this thread, from beginning to end, the reaction to the game has been uniformally positive. If you wish though feel free to trawl through the thread to prove your point. There are dozens of dozens of posts that would contradict you (unless it's all a conspiracy! ).

I disagree on the draw distance point completely. The only comparable game that matches SotC is San Andreas in this area, and even that falls short in comparison (technically a better game overall though in terms of amount of streaming it contends with).

Visually, I'd say SotC is in the top five on the PS2. To disregard art design from the technical realisation of it is a simplification... so if you're to criticise my Oblivion comparison for being simplistic it wouldn't be difficult to do the same to your "it'd be the same on the PSone argument".

Games like SotC (much like PDS, Vagrant Story et al.) find their art design shaped around the technology they're built around as much as the other way around. There has to be compromises within both directions.

Oblivion is using a small percentage of what the 360 is capable of? Still not a justifible excuse for the poor quality streaming and numerous engine bugs given the technology available. Neither does that hold weight on a scalable platform such as the PC.

My point is that Oblivion suffers from largely last-gen problems, whereas SotC copes with them in context of its platform. The end result suffers from several technical problems but in a game of this scope you're not going to achieve overwhelming technical consistency.

No game of large-scale scope (be it SA, Oblivion, SotC, Soul Reaver or any large open-ended game) has ever managed to achieve solidity in terms of technology simply because of the ground that has to be covered with regards to work.

Colossus isn't technically the most sophisticated game on the PS2 (San Andreas and Snake Eater are)... but it's also far from being one of the worst in its stage of the PS2's lifespan. That's my opinion. Feel free to trample all over it if it gives you a buzz.

[EvilBoris]

As I have mentioned before even Tony Hawks American Wasteland has a draw distance that equals SotC and that is a whole city, not a series of empty fields.

And as I have already pointed out, you can't compare a game 5 years into the life of a console, a console where virtually every possible technical problem has had a solution found, to a game 5 months into a life of a console, where relatively little is known about it.

No game of large-scale scope (be it SA, Oblivion, SotC, Soul Reaver or any large open-ended game) has ever managed to achieve solidity in terms of technology simply because of the ground that has to be covered with regards to work.

I still don't know why you keep lumping SoTC in the same kind of game as SA and Oblivion.
You might travel within a large 3D space but the game couldn't be any more linear.

And my PS1 comment was basically saying that what good is the point of trying to create a vision when the hardware makes you fall so short of it. Are you telling me that if the framerate actually went higher than the sub 25FPS speeds that SoTC ran at, it wouldn't make it a better game. Are you saying that they have a good reason to return to that typical 1st gen PS2 jaggy textures look that we were finally rid of 18 months before SoTC came out?

Colossus isn't technically the most sophisticated game on the PS2 (San Andreas and Snake Eater are)... but it's also far from being one of the worst in its stage of the PS2's lifespan. That's my opinion. Feel free to trample all over it if it gives you a buzz.

Obviously it does have its merits , but I find it hard to believe that any developer believes that is is acceptable to release a game with such a large variety of crippling flaws. If the platform that you are developing your game for isn't technically capable of handling the game you intend to make, you shouldn't make it at all , or at the very least make the adjustments to the design of the game to make it fit around the hardware.

Why you are suddenly a victim I don't know, this is games discussion site, I'm just putting across my view so that other people can read my opinions and either agree or disagree and carry of the discussion.