Halo Reach

[Brats]

Now I found those "flashes" disrupting and frustrating. I'm going around doing my thing, and a loud voice starts yelling nonsensical jargon at me and the screen slows down.

Those flashes weren't actually part of the story - they were just Gravemind trying to psyche out Master Chief.

I think you're also touching on a big issue with Halo and many other games there - too many "factions" and characters, with incomprehensible names. It's like a really badly kids cartoon. I accept games are different to films, but games could learn a thing or two about storytelling. Again, it's a dev thinking they're creating some epic mythos or something. It happens time and time again, they have a hit, and then flood the sequels with such contrivances my brain explodes. Gears 2 and Modern Warfare 2 are great recent examples.

Horses for courses, but I liked the stories in both of those games and I found both easy to follow. In terms of characters and factions, all three games pale compared to Lord of the Rings, which has far more 'incomprehensible names'. Even the two main enemies have very similar names (Sauron - Saruman) yet many claim it to be the greatest story (and films) ever.

It's often said that the Lord of the Rings shouldn't work. It breaks many of the usual laws of storytelling, yet it's popularity is undiminished. I think basically it proves the point that there is no single 'right way' of storytelling and just because you don't like Halo's method of telling a story, it doesn't make it incompetent.

I just think it's good that a developer tries something a bit different - whether you like the end result or not.

There's also an argument against telling the story while the game flows, as the player is already engaged in an activity (ie playing). HL2 does it well - you're still playing as the story unfolds, but you're standing there, no action going on. I recall the Gravemind nonsense from H3, yikes that was bad.

As said, the Gravemind bit you're referring to wasn't story and I agree it wasn't good. The main bits though are only during parts where the chief is walking around, not engaged in fighting

Seriously, "Gravemind" and "Guilty Spark"? They need to find a writer who has completed puberty.

They are fine science fiction names.

I like the name Guilty Spark. He is created by the forerunners as a tiny thing that could cause the destruction of the whole galaxy, the 'spark' that could end us all. And he knows it.

[Dogg Thang]

I just think it's good that a developer tries something a bit different - whether you like the end result or not.

I'm really not convinced the problems in Halo 3 arose from trying something different. It's not trying something different if you just don't know any better. I also don't think the problems were about the 'method' of storytelling and more simply because they weren't good at it. It could have been cut scenes, audio messages, in-game real-time encounters or basic text up on screen and, if they made the same fundamental mistake, it wouldn't matter - they did not make clear why we were doing certain things.

You're right that there's a bit of leeway in Master Chief because you can say he's just following orders. I brought that up in that motivation thread. But what effect does that have on my involvement in the game?

There may well not be one right way of telling a story but there are wrong ways and not making clear the very fundamentals of what the character is doing is one of them.

Thing about Halo 3 is that almost every other area was so well done and beautifully polished with outstanding gameplay. I think that's why the story problems frustrated so much.

Still, that's about Halo 3 and I know little about Reach so I'm probably OT with that...

[Matt]

They are fine science fiction names.

LOL no they're not. They're the kind of crap names I'd of used at school when writing.

LOTR is not really a good example to bring up, as of course Halo can't compare to that. I see what you're saying, and yes the Two S's are badly named in that; however, you're talking of a whole mythology there, with a researched history and names actually having a meaning in the language. Vastly different to what you've got in Halo where the sum of all research would appear to be asking a junior English class to tell "The coolest space story you can think of!!"

To be honest, every single time I see the name Master Chief, for some reason I read it as Master Chef.

I think it works better.

[Charlie]

I like games that do that (Oblivion, Fallout 3 for example) but HL2 isn't one imo of them because Gordon's actions do a large part to define his personality. In HL2, when the teleporter goes wrong, I wanted to get back in the lab with Barney, Alex and the Professor as I thought being cautious would be the way I would deal with that situation. However the game says no, you have to become a super action man running through the sewers with crow bar. If the character had a personality projected on him like Halo (or most other games), I wouldn't have had a problem with it.

I like the idea of never being removed from the action in HL2, but the story is definately 'told' to the player, unlike Halo's way of not delivering any exposition.

As others have said, there is no right way, but I'm glad there are games that try different ways.

With regards to Half-Life, I don't know if the story is told. It's experienced, certainly, and many of the characters throughout the course of the game fill you in with news and often give you their take on why what's happening is happening, but it's always interpretations and sometimes you will hear two people talking about the same event in completely different ways.

But I agree completely with Boris and yourself that there is no right way to storytelling. Different approaches bring their own strengths and weaknesses and variety is always to be encouraged.

I just find it odd that so few games keep the player locked into the protagonist's perspective, it works in books and movies but it's especially suited to games.

[Matt]

Having a great time on FireFight.

Unfortunately MatchMaking is the usual Live crap scenario where my little group of friends with a combined total of maybe 10 hours playtime go up against people many ranks higher

Is RocketRace in this? We looked but couldn't find it, though there are Race and Rally gametypes.

[rmoxon]

Master Chief is deffinitley a silly name...

[EvilBoris]

In case you didn't know, it's his Naval Ranking. It's a real life title too

[BaronSqwelch]

I have a question for anyone who has played thru it twice yet...

->Open Spoiler<-

on level 5 where you have to kill the zealot before he escapes if you fail does it alter the story? will be starting my heroic play thru and want to know wether to let him go this time

[Brats]

I'm really not convinced the problems in Halo 3 arose from trying something different. It's not trying something different if you just don't know any better. I also don't think the problems were about the 'method' of storytelling and more simply because they weren't good at it. It could have been cut scenes, audio messages, in-game real-time encounters or basic text up on screen and, if they made the same fundamental mistake, it wouldn't matter - they did not make clear why we were doing certain things.

The 'why' becomes completely apparent at the end of Halo 2, when we discover that the Covenant have been searching for the ark as a way to control the Halo rings. We also learn of their mis-belief that the rings will kill their enemies, rather than kill everything.

The destructive power of the rings is already a key story piece (and discovered about two thirds of the way through Halo 1), as is the threat of the flood, a menace in which the previous higher power of the galaxy (the Forerunners) were forced to destroy themselves to contain.

So the two big threats to the galaxy are already established before the beginning of Halo 3 - stop the Covenant triggering the ark and wipe out the flood. The Flood, the humans and the elites work together initially to beat the Prophets and the Brutes from activating the ark. Once that threat is eliminated in the final battles with the Covenant, the Flood turn enemy again, but Cortana works out a way to destroy them once and for all.

As I said earlier, if you have no knowledge or can't remember the events of Halo 1 or 2, Halo 3 will make no sense, but it all makes perfect sense if you know the events leading up to it. That's not bad storytelling, it's just assuming your audience knows the story to date. They could have done a catch up like many TV shows, but they chose not to. I can't believe it was a case of 'they forgot' it was a concious decision like Mad Men which also doesn't run through a catch up at the beginning of each episode.

And delivering the story without exposition has been a key trait of the Halo games for four games now. Again I can't believe it is anything that a design decision.

[Charlie]

Made it to the final push on the last level on Legenadry before calling it a night last night and am not looking forward to tackling it later this evening as it was bad enough on Heroic.

Doesn't matter how many Spartans you have fighting by your side on Legendary - they're immediately wiped out. And the (invincible) Noble squadmates ain't much better as they spend most their time hiding in cover waiting for you to advance, taking long shots with weapons designed for close-quarter combat or, worst of all, develop temporary blindness and deafness the moment they man a warthog turret. It's infuriating. Wouldn't be so bad if the enemy AI was equally dim, but they're not, they have keen eyes, steady hands and sneaky brains.

It's a fantastic game, very satisfying and rewarding to play, but sometimes it feels like the entire Spartan Army is made up of simpletons.

[Brats]

LOL no they're not. They're the kind of crap names I'd of used at school when writing.

There's precedence in science fiction and fantasy for taking two ordinary words and sticking them together to form names of characters or creatures that partly describe them. Those names are no better or worse than Wormtongue, Mother Brain or Antlion.

I see what you're saying, and yes the Two S's are badly named in that; however, you're talking of a whole mythology there, with a researched history and names actually having a meaning in the language.

What you say there is completely true, but it's irrelevant to the discussion. Very few people know the mythology and background work that Tolkien wrote before they read LOTR, yet they can still enjoy and understand it without having to then go through the appendices and The Lost Tales.

And that's the point, that stories don't have to be restricted in character numbers, names or factions to be understandable or compelling. There are methods that can be used to deliver good storytelling, but sometimes the best stories throw those conventions out of the window.

I'm not saying Halo is 'one of the best stories', but I applaud the fact that it tries a different way of delivery, even if the result is that some people end up hating it. The decision to have the player play the Arbiter for half of Halo 2 was an inspired decision imo, but it alienated a lot of the audience. For such an important franchise, I like the fact that Halo has taken the odd chance like this.

[iloveannie]

...worst of all, develop temporary blindness and deafness the moment they man a warthog turret.

I got to a bridge last night (on Heroic for now!) and thought I'd park the truck and use the rear gun to take out the baddies. So I did, but before I could get any real damage done the girl spartan (Kat?) jumps into the driver's seat, reverses the thing and promptly floors it off the edge of the cliff! If I hadn't been laughing so much I'd have been well pissed off.

Talking vehicle shenanigans, I managed to get the warthog over some concrete bollards yesterday: drove at the side of the wall to try and get it airborne enough. Anyway it got stuck half way but I managed to punch it over the rest (as you do). When I lept back into it the two NPCs refused to get in. Obviously they're not scripted to get in at that point but it still jarred a little. So I cheated a bit by driving closer, manning the gun, moving forward, and so on. Nicest thing about Halo was being able to improvise if you ask me.

[dvdx2]

I got to a bridge last night (on Heroic for now!) and thought I'd park the truck and use the rear gun to take out the baddies. So I did, but before I could get any real damage done the girl spartan (Kat?) jumps into the driver's seat, reverses the thing and promptly floors it off the edge of the cliff! If I hadn't been laughing so much I'd have been well pissed off.

Talking vehicle shenanigans, I managed to get the warthog over some concrete bollards yesterday: drove at the side of the wall to try and get it airborne enough. Anyway it got stuck half way but I managed to punch it over the rest (as you do). When I lept back into it the two NPCs refused to get in. Obviously they're not scripted to get in at that point but it still jarred a little. So I cheated a bit by driving closer, manning the gun, moving forward, and so on. Nicest thing about Halo was being able to improvise if you ask me.

Regarding the bridge bit you talk about; a similar thing happened to me - i let the girl drive (i was in the passenger seat) and she kept starting/braking coming up to the jump. She didnt have enough speed to make it and the vehicle just fell off the edge! I let her drive again (just to see if it was a one off) and it happened again.


Also a ghost got stuck in the scenery and i encounter a bit were i got stuck and couldn't jump onto a ledge. Helloooooo playtesters?????? Seems this game was rushed out a wee bit quickly.

More AI woes - guys standing around in the middle of a firefight doing nothing - Again in a full scale battle firing pot shots whilst every other gun is blaring and boy that story is hocum.

I seriously hope bungie put halo to bed and bring out a new francise (fps)

Still really like it (loved the slipheed style flying and helicoptor bit)

[iloveannie]

As for stories? Well I often find myself mentally switching off during cut-scenes or marvelling at the graphical touches. I'm 39 now and have been playing games long enough to know that their story-telling can't come close to film or the written word. Possibly won't ever come close due to the difference in delivery and the discipline of game creators. It's a pity but something I've come to expect over the years. So far it's just been the childish scribblings of teenage boys and nerds. Well that's my opinion anyway

I can't be the only one who feels this way and it would make me chuckle if any of our great "celebrity devs" knew how so many people felt after all the effort they put into a story and scenes. GTA4 story? Couldn't give a ****. It's a sandbox game about driving around and killing people. Thoroughly enjoyed it: couldn't give a monkey's who he was, where he came from, or what would happen to him. It's a game not a film.

But as for the old cliches of Portal, Ico and SotC, well that's a different matter entirely. That's them using their imagination to get us to use ours. Utter brilliance as far as I'm concerned. We'll give you the setting, you make your mind up about the rest.

[iloveannie]

Helloooooo playtesters??????

Elite stood at his post while I killed everything around him.

Characters sticking through scenery or objects (after all these years haven't they fixed this yet?).

Walking right through fresh corpses but bumping into those that are already in an area.

NPC vehicle interaction. Lack of.

Polite filter not working. Some northern monkey effin and blindin at a few foreigners playing yesterday for not speaking English. Okay so Bungie can't be held ransom for that