Game Length: A rant about PLAYING games

[rjpageuk]

Yea, I agree with that... I'd probably shout "PRETENIOUS COCK" instead though

Maybe you could actually highlights the points you felt this way about.

I dont really see how me wanting to skip cutscenes/feel they dont add to an experience can make me pretentious though.

Now, what if, right, a reviewer said the game is short and actually meant it took little time to learn its mechanics? I've seen plenty of reviews like that, John's review of Outrun 2 comes across like this and I find nowt wrong with that at all.

You continuously misunderstand this point everytime I see you post about it. It doesnt take much time to learn Outrun2, Ikaruga, Psyvariar, DMC or VJ 's mechanic. What does take time is mastering that mechanic, and very few games give you a good "playground" with which to fully exploit the mechanic.

[mid]

The thing is, a lot of the games getting it in the neck here, certainly from me - Jak, DMC, Burnout3 etc - are ARCADEY. Once you get into the game, its great, because you're getting pure gameplay. Its just that makes the dull stuff before you reach it even more annoying. I'd probably understand the presence of long cutscenes in an RPG.

But then, I never play RPGs because they're too slow...

[Commander Marklar]

You continuously misunderstand this point everytime I see you post about it. It doesnt take much time to learn Outrun2, Ikaruga, Psyvariar, DMC or VJ 's mechanic. What does take time is mastering that mechanic, and very few games give you a good "playground" with which to fully exploit the mechanic.

You're the one who has misunderstood, mostly 'cos I typed the wrong word I raised the point that it doesn't take long to master the mechanic, like powersliding in Outrun 2 (the game then becomes about perfecting lines), switching colours in Ikaruga and chaining (which then becomes a memory test), buzzing in Psy (this ones a little different, as the game mechanic here isn't strictly about buzzing). DMC and VJ are much deeper than those examples, both games I'd consider longer lasting titles.

This is why I consider Outrun 2 (for example) a short game; the mechanic used is easily learnt and then bypassed as a player realises it isn't required to perform well in the game, so the emphasis moves back towards faster lines around corners; it is secondary to the nature of the game which in itself proves to be a short lived experience (okay, the second point is opinion). Daytona's mechanics, on the other hand, are far deeper; it takes longer to master the way in which a car handles, using manual gears, etc, to extend the games life. There is greater variation in how a player takes control of the car (Wait, you 4-1-4'd that corner? Left it in 4th and used your brakes?! Wall-clipping?) and it takes much longer to learn, the game's mechanics are primary to performing well in the game.

[bangaio]

one of th ebest threads in ages, game length is an overblown subject - save screens that show how long youve been playing, simple games made too long by adding needless pieces, plot - PLOT!

I feel as people get older and stil play games (or at least this is for me) that sdometimes i just like to unwind when i have some spare time. Sometimes i listen to music, others go out for a drink with friends, others go to the cinema. What do all these have that so many games dont - the ability to feel satisfied and that you have completed something. The amount of games i have given up on becuase I am only 5% in to it, havent played for a while and cant be bothered or because they have hours of wondering around talking to people i cant believe. There are exceptions to this obviously but i look at the games I play the most, - i have lots of games, so many unplayed - and I see:

ridge racer - i can play the first track over and over
virtua racing sega ages - the same
we7i - no master league, just a quick couple of 10 minute games
pikmin, luigis mansion, a quick peek into my village in animal crossing.
mario 64 - just to play through a level or two and smw too
pilot wings - a quick challenge
quick bash at a level in rez etc etc - all quick concise pieces of games playing that leave me feeling happy and satisfied. Which is more than i can say for ICO, shenmue, wind waker final fantasy anything (except 3 US) disgaea and so on. I just donbt have the time, or effort to play games like that anymore.

[rjpageuk]

switching colours in Ikaruga and chaining (which then becomes a memory test), buzzing in Psy (this ones a little different, as the game mechanic here isn't strictly about buzzing). DMC and VJ are much deeper than those examples, both games I'd consider longer lasting titles.

People who dont play a lot of Ikaruga tend to fall back to the "its a memory test" line. I know every single split second of Ikaruga off by heart now having put over 400 hours into the game. However I cannot fully chain the game. Why? Its certainly not because I havent learnt the game well enough.

Ikaruga gives a stunningly good playground with which to use their simple mechanic. Its deep in the sense that there is continous progression and in the time it takes to make this progression. This is where the depth is, and this is where games like Psy, VJ, DMC and Outrun2 also shine.

The difference between Burnout3 and Outrun2 is that the playground Burnout3 gives you is not built around this mechanic - the mechanic is just tacked onto it. In Outrun2 the tracks and the game are built around the mechanic (in the same way the other examples are). I dont really want to turn this thread into a Burnout3 vs Outrun2 debate as the games have different aims.

The aim of this thread wasnt to bash certain games like Burnout3 - for the 20 minutes I played it (in the hour it was on) I enjoyed it. It was fun. My complaints were about all the other stuff highlighted.

[mid]

Likewise, once I ever actually get the game, I'm fully expecting to really enjoy the gameplay in Burnout 3. What its being critisised for here is the amount of time you spend NOT playing it, but working through menu screens and waiting for things to load.

OutRun 2 suffers from loading waits when you restart a stage, too, and the slow trudging through the online highscore tables as it loads each one in turn is a right old pain. So don't think I'm letting that off the hook.

[spagmasterswift]

Ikaruga gives a stunningly good playground with which to use their simple mechanic. Its deep in the sense that there is continous progression and in the time it takes to make this progression. This is where the depth is, and this is where games like Psy, VJ, DMC and Outrun2 also shine.

The difference between Burnout3 and Outrun2 is that the playground Burnout3 gives you is not built around this mechanic - the mechanic is just tacked onto it.

Not sure about that bit mate. The tracks in Burnout3 have plenty of places where the games 'Takedown' mechanic can be implemented. Shunts into the sides of bridges, pillars, harsh turns, etc. The depth comes in when you master holding a rival behind you until you are near a good takedown spot release them (brake/accelerate) and attack.

Buzzing cars and playing in the oncoming traffic isn't essential to your progress (as you can ram other players off the road instead of having to out race them) in the same way bussin Zoom in muscle posses when you Rainbow Viewtiful a stage in Joe isn't. Its just more depth and a way to play with the mechanics. Psychout a car and flip them over your bonnet then switch to rear view and watch them smash behind you is DEPTH! Its tricky and not for the fainthearted but adds to the experience.

Games that allow you to throw in your own (to pimp a Saur phrase) "theatrics" = DEPTH!!

Anyways that's the sort of thing you didn't want to bog up your nice thread with so soz mang.

[rjpageuk]

Not sure about that bit mate. The tracks in Burnout3 have plenty of places where the games 'Takedown' mechanic can be implemented.

Yeah you are probably right, I didnt play Burnout3 enough. I was referring to the drifting with the point I made I probably should have made it clearer.

I do agree with the other points you made too.

[spagmasterswift]

Thats cool, I haven't played Outrun 2 on a console yet so can't comment on drift...

[Zapp$ter]

Hearing all this stuff about how deep DMC is makes me want to go back and play it again. My one and only time through the game was basically me just button mashing my way through it. Anyone know some place I can find out more stuff about the combat in DMC?

[RLench]

I don't want to turn this into a Burnout vs Outrun fight either but I think I should respond to what's been said

The tutorial in Burnout is less than 10 minutes long. 10 minutes...

People are making it seem like you have to watch a black screen for three hours before you can start racing. It's a 10 minute (interactive) tutorial that shows you how to play. I'd certainly prefer that to having to play through a game that I don't understand properly. I've now played Burnout 3 for over 40 hours, and I'm still not bored of it. Compared to that, the tutorial seems irrelevant (and I can't even remember some of it now)

Viewtiful Joe had a tutorial. Did that ruin the game? Of course not...it made it better by showing you how to play before giving you the reins.

The loading times have never bothered me either. Less than 5 seconds between 10 minute races? Sounds perfectly fair to me. Considering the size of the tracks, and the complexity of the game I think it's a very fast game to load. Again, people are blowing this out of proportion, IMO

[spagmasterswift]

What gets me with Burnout3 though is you race - probably get a gold - then you have a load screen, then you are told you have unlocked a couple of cars (which you have to view right then and there), then you are told you have been invited to a New Event on another Continent, then your taken to the Map where you have all these choices of events and what not and your left like WTF!! I JUST WANT TO BE BACK IN RACING!!! A lot of that stuff should have been made optional. Why not tell me that I have unlocked cars and let me decide if I want to go to the garage and take a look???

And whats with the Save Screen having music start up and telling you the track name and then cutting off when you go back into another load screen??? - **** I need to chill out on this - I was loving this game an hour ago!!!!

[RLench]

I agree but the point of doing that is that you unlock better cars and more difficult competitions. So when you get a gold, and finish a championship, you MUST enter a new race to proceed.

Whenever I unlocked something on it, I would always test it straight away. So that meant riding in a better, faster car and (probably) on a course that I'd never seen before. That's better - to me - than playing on a similar course in a car that now seems slow and dated

The videos of unlocking new cars did get annoying by the end, but they only last a few seconds. And it's very rare that you'll unlock more than three at a time

[spagmasterswift]

The videos of unlocking new cars did get annoying by the end, but they only last a few seconds.

True, it seems stupid to be worry about a few seconds of interruption and on the whole I'm usually good at dealing with load screens and the like. But with Burnout3, a game that is about SPEED, moments that happen in the space of a blinked eye, these load screens can seem like an age.

Also going from an unbelievable visual assault and tweaky interaction to a bland screen with two naff silhouettes of cars crawling towards each other over and over and over...

[charlesr]

When I first got Burnout3, as with most games, I check out the options first in case there's anything interesting. So I see "tutorial" and wonder how they have implemented it, so "play" through the tutorial. Bit tedious (I thought) but not too bad. BUT, then I go to play the main game and before it will let me get on with the game it forced me to do..... you guessed it... THE TUTORIAL. Like wtf. I just did this. skip! skip! dammit. Why can't I skip this? I've just done it? gah.
Loved the racing in BO3, but hated all the maps and loading and stuff.