DOA3 better than VF4e

[optimusomega]

Hmm some interesting points made there, I think the underlying overall 'experience' of a game however should be positive (otherwise youre just a macicist ), depends what you define as positive..
I totally agree with the explanation of Shenmue's job function in that it added to the immersion.

[JU!]

I find DOA easy to pick up, but it is about as deep as a puddle in the street. As for the comments above from Itagaki about Tekken, what has DOA done to push the boundaries, scenerary breaking hardly pushes boundaries.

I can't belive he openly slagged off another game developers game, i'm sure Yu Suzuki has never done that.

[Che Musashi]

An interesting debate indeed. DOA is shiite! With Virtua Fighter you must fight by this Yoda axiom.

"There is no try, only do or do not."
Wise words indeed. Evo is a pickup and play game that's what arcade mode is for. If you want to delve deeper, then there is quest mode which forces you to learn and get better so you can advance.

I really don't think its a cultural thing. As it is Virtua Fighter Evo does sort of represent the huge differences culturally between Japan and the west. Its really popular in the Arcade in Japan, but its console sales are abysmal because everybody can go to the arcade. In the west we depend on our consoles to simulate that Evo experience, which the Japanese really have down pat.

That's my two bits, if you want a pick up and play character pick Lau and have fun.

[Tobal]

I just can't get into Vf games, i owned Vf3 for while now and have just never been able to enjoyit. It seems it missing impact from big attacks and that all there doing is trading pokes all the time on was it basiclly an 2D fighter with side step, i have no idea how much better vf4 is but if it retains the boring, boring crappy beginner matches like the rest of the series (im sure medium to expert battle are brilliant) then i'll will find i can get way more out of DoA, SC or Street fighter. But nower days i have niether the time and desire to learn huge movesets(i put his down to work and my friends being rubbish at fighting games, there nothing less fun than holding back yourself and letting them land punches on you).

And to be honest there no such thing a Button masher, and your being rather harsh on DoA3, i can just about link up a couple of tag combos and thats it but i find it quite easy to beat a button masher by countering or block/throwing.

[Tokuda]

An interesting debate indeed. DOA is shiite! With Virtua Fighter you must fight by this Yoda axiom

"There is no try, only do or do not."

Wise words indeed. Evo is a pickup and play game that's what arcade mode is for. If you want to delve deeper, then there is quest mode which forces you to learn and get better so you can advance.

You can pick up and play Evo, but it just wouldn`t appeal to anyone who is more casual about their fighters as it simply doesn`t look quite as spectacular as DOA3 (which is ****e- you`re right- the game is a complete joke).

Thats the best thing about Evo - it's stupidly simple to get started but there is no ceiling as to how good you can get or how much into it you are. It's like a sport - players here respect manz like Segaru, Chibita and Shu as they would famous sports stars, and they rightly should be.

There is nothing going on in the UK because people dont like to get involved in anything - we have to look to Japan for inspiration as there is nothing here. If more people would just try we could have a wicked VF scene here.

The best thing about VF is that you can learn in smal steps - EVERYTHING in VF can be countered or escaped. If you find that a certain technique is hurting you often you can learn how to deal with that technique - but not by simply hitting a button, you have to counter technique with technique and so the fight flows beautifully all the time you are building on your vocabulary of attacks, counters and dodges. You dont have to memorise an entire move and frame listing to get good with a character, you learn in small steps and it's very rewarding.

Saur is so right- I couldn`t have put it better myself. The game is a sport and a beautifully designed one at that. There are so so so so so many layers of depth in there. The fact that it has so so so many layers of depth and that pure skill will much more often than not determine who wins the match, makes the card and player ranking system possible. I can`t think of any other fighting games, let alone arcade games where this would work as well. Quite simply no other fighting game compares in depth, scope or pure balance.

Theres so many things and techniques to learn on the way to becoming a great fighter.

You learn the game step by step (and there are thousands upon thousands of steps to take). It blows my head just thinking about what I have to learn still (I`m still a relative beginner).

[Tokuda]

And to be honest there no such thing a Button masher, and your being rather harsh on DoA3, i can just about link up a couple of tag combos and thats it but i find it quite easy to beat a button masher by countering or block/throwing.

You`re right- its dead easy to beat a button masher on DOA3 but the fundamental problem with the game is that it literally takes a couple of days for 2 skilled fighting game players to rinse out about as much depth as there is in the game. It works incredibly well though for those who want a easy and accessible system, but for those looking for any kind of depth, theres nothing doing. The counters are a complete joke for anyone serious about trying to wring some depth from the system.

VF needs to be played between people really interested in trying to learn it. I wouldn`t dream of playing it with most of my friends as they would either dismiss it for being too hard or not looking as nice as SC2 or DOA3. It is a true fighting masters game and it makes no apologies for it.

[Tobal]

The only game series i that would want to re-learn is Tobal, if only they would make Tobal 3 .

I should really get that xbox PSx emu and burn it with the translated Tobal 2

[DaiSuki]

An intriguing thread, and no mistaking.

While I wouldn't for a second wish to belittle the views of those who prefer to spend months and years learning a game, I'm very much of the opinion that DOA3 is a much better game than people give it credit for.

Hear me out.

People have said a few times in here now that VF4 is a "sport" rather than a game - all well and good, but the 100 metre sprint is also a sport, and while it's super-simplistic (run as fast as you can for about ten seconds) and not to everybody's tastes, those who 'get it' find it endlessly fascinating. I see 3D fighters the same way. I love my 2D fighters dearly, but I've never found a 3D one which can entertain me the same way as Street Fighter does (admittedly, I've never played Evo yet but I have played the rest of the series and been less than impressed). For this reason alone, I can see 3D fighters as an entirely distinct entity to 2D ones and have a great deal of fun with the likes of Rival Schools 2 and the DOA series as timewasters - and if I won't get any better after five months with the game than I was after five minutes, it's a non-issue for me, as long as I still enjoy playing them.

It's not about button bashing - it's about being satisfied with PPPPK sometimes working and sometimes not. Not everybody looks at their fighters the same way, and I think it's important that people remember that.

As far as the original point of the thread is concerned, which is better between the two... well, it's like comparing a brick and a horse. Builders prefer bricks, jockeys prefer horses. Neither is inherently 'better' than the other as a result of a perceived complexity - given the choice between Space Channel 5 and Age of Empires 2 I know what I'd go for every time.

[concludes that he has added nothing to the debate]

[thinks, "sod it, it's been a while since I posted in Discussion]

[Tokuda]

Interesting points Dai mate- and I would certainly agree that for more casual fighting game players, DOA3 is a better game for them(as clearly Evo is not for everyone). Clearly not everyone looks at fighting games in the same way, however I personally draw a distinction between what certain people will enjoy and what is actually the better product.

I still think you can make the case the Evo is undoubtedly the better game (just like in you can make the case that the Godfather is clearly a better film than Juraissic Park). Undoubtedly many will clearly enjoy Jurrassic Park more, but I personally refuse to believe for a minute that neither film is better than the other. Just like I refuse to believe that Evo isn`t a gazillion times better than DOA3.

[DaiSuki]

"personally" being the key issue there.

As long as we agree on that, everyone is happy. To my mind, Virtua Fighter is overstated, overcomplicated and overblown - qualities which will be seen by fans as "deep", "meaningful" and "tactical".

Complexity isn't always a good thing - I'm sure there were people who spent months of their life learning to play Powermonger on the Amiga while the majority of us were happy with MegaLoMania's vastly simplified, and more fun, take on the genre.

[Tokuda]

"personally" being the key issue there.

As long as we agree on that, everyone is happy. To my mind, Virtua Fighter is overstated, overcomplicated and overblown - qualities which will be seen by fans as "deep", "meaningful" and "tactical".

Complexity isn't always a good thing - I'm sure there were people who spent months of their life learning to play Powermonger on the Amiga while the majority of us were happy with MegaLoMania's vastly simplified, and more fun, take on the genre.

Of course, there can be no way that we can disagree with the term `personally`. Having said that if we always abide by that rationale than nothing is better anything else in any medium.

I know complexity isn`t always a good thing for all fans (this much is obvious), but from a fighting fans point of view, depth (which of course has to be balanced and well executed naturally) is a more satisfying thing within a fighting game. Thats why for me, personally, DOA3 is a complete joke (although I always whip it out if I have non-gaming friends round my house).

I don`t mean to belittle anyone who likes DOA3- its just my personal take on it- so please no one be offended.

[DaiSuki]

OK, i'm happy with that, as long as I can get away with the overstated and overblown thing as detailed above

And I'm sure nobody has taken any offence; this has been a very well argued debate, IMO, and a pleasure to read.

[Sidez]

The problem with DOA3 is the moves lists are so small (the game engine is sound, but combo potential minimal compared to VF4) and there are no arcade counters so the game is just janken in effect.

DOA3 could have been a really good alternative to VF4 but Team Ninja really dropped the ball here, DOA2 on DC is better IMO. Hell, DOA1 on Saturn is better than DOA3, that game was hella tight.

[Nimmel]

DOA3 could have been a really good alternative to VF4

But it is a good alternative for those of us who want to hit people 400 times after a 30 sec explaination using the skill of pressing 2 buttons randomly very, very quickly.

[Shoju]

I must say that it's very hard to practice, and get good, at a game if you don't have anyone to challenge to make you better.

Sure, I can sit here on my own playing SC2 against the AI, but would I really be learning anything? No.

I played SC2 with my Bro for a week or so after I got it. Then he had to get back to studying, which left me back to AI.
None of my mates are really into games as much as me and it's very hard to get into a 'rhythm' with a fighter.

I would love to get Evo, and I probably will, but without people to challenge, I'll only be as good as the AI.

Have a look at what Steve Dynamic posted under gaming discussion. This will give you competiton, an incentive to train and something to aim for.