PlayStation Move

[Tig]

I just think it would be a mistake to assume that the kind of software available for the Wii will necessarily be the kind of software that makes up the Move line-up. The Wii's software line-up is a product of the limitations of it's implementation of motion control, and the audience that it is perceived to have.

Agreed. Most Wii games use nothing more than vague waggle gestures, because that's all the wiimote can be relied upon to detect. Designers haven't been able to do anything sophisticated with gesture controls because the hardware can't support it.


You can't, for example, pick up a virtual object and move it accurately in 3D space with the Wiimote.
So instead of getting (fr'example) an ambitious adventure game based around naturalistic interaction, we got stuff like Elebits... waggle around to smash everything up.
Designers work to the limitations of the hardware.



Even the (excellent) Boom Blox was hamstrung: a game based on Jenga which you can't really play like Jenga, because the remote can't handle Z-axis movement. So here you are, just throw crap at the tower instead.



I'm optimistic that the Move will enable far more interesting games.
Just think of it this way: this thing's basically a 3D joystick without the base. With the nonchuck included, that's ten axis of analogue input from your hands. (Three rotational axis, three positional, two-dimensional thumbstick plus two analogue triggers.) If designers can't think of something cool with that lot, I'll be well disappointed!

[Brad]

You can't, for example, pick up a virtual object and move it accurately in 3D space with the Wiimote.

Whereas Eyepet allows you to do that just using the Playstation Eye. The bowling game allows you to accurately position a 'ramp' for your eyepet to roll down in 3d space just using a 'magic card' that it can see. Sony must have been working on this for years. You don't allow your webcam to support 120 frames per second just for a laugh. They knew they were going to need that tech long term IMO.

EDIT: Credit must go to Nintendo though for taking the first step in all of this. They were first to take the risk and I'm glad it's paid off for them, even though they lost me along the way by doing so.

[EvilBoris]

You don't allow your webcam to support 120 frames per second just for a laugh. They knew they were going to need that tech long term IMO.

You probably do when it's capturing at 320*240, it's nothing fancy really, you can get mobile phones that do the same.

[rubans]

I sound like Tretton? Sorry, I know I'm supposed to tow the 360 fanboy party line, but given that they've scaled back the technology in NATAL, I'm just not that interested in playing Wii games on my 360 at the moment.

I've seen the demo's that MS have chosen to present to us, and none of them appeal to me. I don't want to turn my 360 on or off with voice commands, I don't want to PAY for a version of dodgeball that the family will be bored of after the first few sessions. We've been here before with the Wii. I can see both the MOVE and NATAL having applications in hardcore games, but the MOVE connotations appeal to me more.

Having used their current camera and software in "IN THE MOVIES" I'm very dubious about the quality of product we'll see, since that product only works in very specific lighting.

Also, the people thinking that there will be addon controllers etc for the NATAL, well, they'd have to be official as MS are notorious about allowing third party additions to the console family, certainly with wireless tech anyway.

I'd never be so foolish to write off or dismiss something so early, but given all the known facts around both pieces of tech, if I'm going to get excited about either of them, it won't be NATAL.

Molyneux can wax lyrical about talking to a little boy on screen all he wants, but I'd love to see that tech actually running without someone sat at a PC programming it all the while.

Sony have shown their product a lot recently, allowing people to try it just because they asked. They have shown enough that it has got my imagination firing about the future possibilities. Everything we've seen of NATAL has been carefully staged in perfect conditions, the E3 stuff was "wow" but so rehearsed it's unreal, and we've not seen a lot since.

To be honest though, I'd imagine neither are aimed at me anyway.

The demos are not even games shown by MS, they have not shown actual games so why not wait till then before being so judgemental.
So from this thread, I have gathered if anyone dares to criticise the might Sony, you will label them Anti Sony, but raises a point regarding the unknown nature of Natal then Microsoft fan boy?

[EvilBoris]

I'm interested to see how both products pan out, after seeing how the iphone has changed what I consider a normal and intuitive way to operate a device I can't wait to see what both Sony and Microsoft can come up with.

I think most of us lack the imagination to guess what the greatest minds in the games industry will come up with, but I can't wait. It's an exciting time for gamers, things are changing, we've seen the online gaming revolution in the last generation and a half and perhaps we are about to see something else even more revolutionary.

Move looks pretty cool and of course Sony's Move is going to have applications that won't be doable by Natal and vice versa.

Personally I'd like to see Sony show more that isn't just augmented reality or interacting with my own webcam image. I want examples of whole games that are using the technology even if it is to a very small part of it's potential.
Same goes for Natal, I want to see one of these "launch titles" that are designed specifically for Natal and not just Mini games either

[rubans]

Agree, very exciting technologies and good to see all 3 not standing still including the 3d DS.
E3 should be worth a look.

[Jebus]

The demos are not even games shown by MS, they have not shown actual games so why not wait till then before being so judgemental.

Once again, I'm not being judgmental, Microsoft have given us nothing to judge, apart from letting out the fact the tech has been scaled back from what it was going to be.

All the storm and bluster from E3 has given way to absolutely nothing, they've come quiet, they've scaled the tech back. It's not being "judgmental" to be cautious about a product, especially given the known facts about the device. At the risk of repeating myself for your benefit, I was merely pointing out that Sony seem willing to let people actually play with the tech, they aren't doing behind closed door demos that are controlled by a guy behind a PC!

So from this thread, I have gathered if anyone dares to criticise the might Sony, you will label them Anti Sony, but raises a point regarding the unknown nature of Natal then Microsoft fan boy?

I was actually reffering to the fact that I believe this forum, in general (though there are exceptions like in any generalisation), leans toward the 360 more.

If you want to be facetious and use comments like "the mighty sony" then please, be my guest. Though if you gathered that from this thread, then you are the one being judgmental, not I.

Personally I find people "picking sides" to be both sad and tragic, having healthy competition is the only way to drive forward the industry I love.

[rubans]

I think I this is pretty judgemental and facetious, and this what I was referring to:
As for NATAL, I think it'll fail amongst the hardcore. I don't believe that that section of gamers want a peripheral free experience. Given how scaled down the tech has now become, I don't think the games will be any more complicated than the Wii lineup, whereas the MOVE has enormous potential with it's ability to move in a full 3D space.

No need to bring MS into it, and I agree quiet a few users are picking sides without seeing both sides. It's pathetic and not necessary.
Let's see how both turn out, let's keep this thread about PS Move without bring Natal into it since without games all it is so far is technology so let's just wait without casting judgement.

[EvilBoris]

As for NATAL, I think it'll fail amongst the hardcore. I don't believe that that section of gamers want a peripheral free experience. Given how scaled down the tech has now become, I don't think the games will be any more complicated than the Wii lineup, whereas the MOVE has enormous potential with it's ability to move in a full 3D space.

It hasn't been that scaled back has it? It just doesn't have the dedicated processor.

I quite like the idea of the versatility of Natal and the potential for basic functions that allow me to interact with my console in a very transparent natural way even when playing any traditional game.

Even something fairly minor like any game being able to pause itself when you aren't in the room or when someone walks in front of the screen could become a feature that would be missed in other consoles, Much like the unified friends list and guide functions that the 360 offered upon launch.

[Jebus]

As for NATAL, I think it'll fail amongst the hardcore. I don't believe that that section of gamers want a peripheral free experience. Given how scaled down the tech has now become, I don't think the games will be any more complicated than the Wii lineup, whereas the MOVE has enormous potential with it's ability to move in a full 3D space.

That was purely my opinion based on the known facts about the device.

As I also said, if they can show me something interesting, I'll be paying attention.

Oh and if the game paused itself whenever someone walked in front of the screen, I may as well give up gaming now.

[rubans]

It hasn't been that scaled back has it? It just doesn't have the dedicated processor.

I quite like the idea of the versatility of Natal and the potential for basic functions that allow me to interact with my console in a very transparent natural way even when playing any traditional game.

Even something fairly minor like any game being able to pause itself when you aren't in the room or when someone walks in front of the screen could become a feature that would be missed in other consoles, Much like the unified friends list and guide functions that the 360 offered upon launch.

I was just quoting another post Boris, but I agree. Should be interesting, but probably won't see anything interesting on both till devs had a proper go at it.

[Brad]

I think the simple reason people seem to be more hyped for this that Natal at the moment is that Sony have showed proper games and game concepts the gamers can see would enhance their gaming experience. I'm not saying MS have got nothing but they certainly never show anything. I don't even want to try that ball hitting thing. Seriously, not even interested in trying it. However, the ability to control a sword with such precision that I can use the tip to flick up the head of a skeleton before chopping it off appeals greatly! I quite enjoyed waggling the wiimote in Twilight Princess but at the same time I was disappointed that I couldn't control the sword properly. Move looks like it'll allow me to do that.

Natal recognises 11 points on your body. At a guess that'd be 2 ankles, 2 knees, 2 shoulders, 2 elbows, 2 hands and your head? Whole body capture is the phrase that's been touted so it'd most likely be the extremeties and the joints yes? That's impressive but it also highlights the kind of input they're expecting. Not precise input from the lazy gamer but the input you get from making large moves with all those bits of your body. Wii balance board style games should make an excellent translation and for that reason Natal may sell extremely well. For traditional gamers though it's not going to have enough precision (unless it has features they haven't announced yet).

[rubans]

I think the simple reason people seem to be more hyped for this that Natal at the moment is that Sony have showed proper games and game concepts the gamers can see would enhance their gaming experience. I'm not saying MS have got nothing but they certainly never show anything. I don't even want to try that ball hitting thing. Seriously, not even interested in trying it. However, the ability to control a sword with such precision that I can use the tip to flick up the head of a skeleton before chopping it off appeals greatly! I quite enjoyed waggling the wiimote in Twilight Princess but at the same time I was disappointed that I couldn't control the sword properly. Move looks like it'll allow me to do that.

Natal recognises 11 points on your body. At a guess that'd be 2 ankles, 2 knees, 2 shoulders, 2 elbows, 2 hands and your head? Whole body capture is the phrase that's been touted so it'd most likely be the extremeties and the joints yes? That's impressive but it also highlights the kind of input they're expecting. Not precise input from the lazy gamer but the input you get from making large moves with all those bits of your body. Wii balance board style games should make an excellent translation and for that reason Natal may sell extremely well. For traditional gamers though it's not going to have enough precision (unless it has features they haven't announced yet).

Ofcourse there are, with the amount of support announced there's bound to be more than what you are commening on, comparing the balance board to the Natal is new though.

[Brad]

Well, apart from weighing yourself the balance board seems to mostly be used for detecting whether you are leaning in a particular way. Seems to me that Natal could do that much better.

Regarding what I commented on, I'm just picking up on the tech that they've announced. It's a camera system that can detect 11 body points and also depth using an infra red camera. The system certainly invites imagination from the developers.

[EvilBoris]

Natal recognises 11 points on your body. At a guess that'd be 2 ankles, 2 knees, 2 shoulders, 2 elbows, 2 hands and your head? Whole body capture is the phrase that's been touted so it'd most likely be the extremeties and the joints yes? That's impressive but it also highlights the kind of input they're expecting. Not precise input from the lazy gamer but the input you get from making large moves with all those bits of your body. Wii balance board style games should make an excellent translation and for that reason Natal may sell extremely well. For traditional gamers though it's not going to have enough precision (unless it has features they haven't announced yet).

It's actually 48 points on 1 person.