Length and "Value for Money"

[prinnysquad]

Anyway, you're missing the point.

Not so. I get it. Completely. As my mopped up previous post alludes to. But there was just a single thing you said that struck a chord as being the opposite to a particularly memorable example.

I'm just pleased I didn't treat that demo as the whole doohickey of the title in that particular case. My instincts were wrong. This has happened with other demos. It has also worked in reverse - decent demos that misrepresented a poor game.

I'm not denigrating the prerogative of people using demos to inform their buying choices. Far from it, we've all avoided some right stinkers thanks to demos. But it can, sometimes, work the other way. From experience, my opinion as shaped by a demo has occasionally been very wrong indeed. Demos such as Blacksite, Air Combat, Bladestorm, Ninety Nine Nights - all have shaped my opinion, one way or another - which ended up being wrong. NB - I received these, or only bought them ridiculously cheap, or played someone elses' copy.

How to find this out without being dumb enough to blow big bucks? See above!

PS - why are you watching an unseen film of BR? Surely you weren't dumb enough to spend money on it without watching the trailer

[Daragon]

So if I shoplift how does that affect the value for money calculation....

Obviously if you get something for free then your right to complain over it representing poor value disappears, unless in the instance of you receiving a game to review or you get a promo copy. You tell others about the experience and then recommend it or slag it off as appropriate.

And to directly answer the question in point - is shoplifting a video game possible in this day and age? Where the games aren't kept locked in a cabinet behind the counter your store probably has tighter security than a nun's chaffinch!

[Matt]

PS - why are you watching an unseen film of BR? Surely you weren't dumb enough to spend money on it without watching the trailer

Nope. I'd not spend ?20 on a BR unless it was a film I knew I'd get more than a single viewing from. I do not hoard and am not a compulsive spender

LoveFilm to the rescue here. A mere rental. The description sounded good, and the trailer actually looked good. Which is another thing I'm sure people have experienced - good demo, but you quickly get bored with the final product.

Film trailers are of course completely different to a game demo, as you can make almost any film look decent with a good editor

[prinnysquad]

What, even ZombieZ?

lol at the vacant mong hordes. Was it filmed outside of St James' Park?

[Matt]

What, even ZombieZ?

lol at the vacant mong hordes. Was it filmed outside of St James' Park?

LOL thanks for that. Funnily enough, given one of the lead actresses vanished, leaving us without enough footage to complete the promo - yes, you'd be amazed what good editing can do

It was filmed outside Churchill Square, which is the shopping center in Brighton

[Jebus]

Can't you see where I'm coming from though? if I had just watched the first 10 or 15 minutes of a film but then came on here and commented on how boring and art-house it was , when in fact you, having watched the film, knew that it got significantly better after those 15 minutes.

What you seem to be arguing though, is that if you saw the first 15 minutes of a film and walked out, thinking "This is the most god awful arse ****ting load of donkey balls my poor arse has ever been forced to sit through" then for some reason your opinion is invalid because you didn't force yourself to sit through the rest of it!

If that's the case then first play threads are going to be very slow to start, because nobody is allowed an opinion until they've finished it! Imagine the FFXIII thread! No posts for a fortnight!

From the get go, I knew that Limbo would be one of those games with a thread where people who liked it would simply refuse to accept a negative opinion from other posters.

A friend of mine played it from start to finish in front of me yesterday in about 2 hours or less (with a little help from me, obviously) and his reaction upon completion was "Is that it?". Now, he's not an idiot and he appreciated the game's visuals, but he was asking me questions I couldn't answer about the sister, the "story" and when I "answered" he was very glad he hadn't paid for it.

Artsy does not = Amazing and even the best games in the world should not get a free pass in departments they fail in. The game reminds me in many ways of Demon's Souls, which tells you so little and expects so very much. People who love that game defend it with (imho) such borderline offensive remarks such as "You don't like hard games" or "You don't get it". Well maybe, but frankly I'm not prepared to give a game a free pass because someone tells me it's great. Just like Demon's Souls, Limbo is a good game but it's flawed (imho both are deeply flawed) yet people feel some bizarre need to defend them as though they had a hand in their creation.

As for value for money though, Once you've "got everything" in Limbo, it has very little replayability save for showing it off to friends to show them how cool you are! It's a comically short game and in all honesty, there's no reason it should be that short, it's not as though there is a story constraining it to that length. To me it's almost a case of the dev getting greedy and believing their own hype. It's a short game that will last you a day for a tenner and that's fine, or at least it would be if it weren't being subjected to such ridiculous uber-hype in this manner. It's a good game, nothing more. It doesn't redefine anything, it's just a good game.

Whether or not it's worth £10 instead of £7.50 (or whatever) is so utterly subjective and frankly, impossible to argue.

[Brats]

There are loads of titles where the full game was much better than the demo. Examples that immediately spring to mind:

Burnout Paradise
Banjo Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts
Forza 2
Left 4 Dead
Chromehounds
PGR2

I've learnt through experience that although a demo should represent the full game, it often doesn't. I agree that is rubbish, but that's how it is. Maybe it gets farmed out to the work experience dude.

So although someone who just plays the demo or trial does have a right to express their opinion on it, they are talking for a disadvantaged position on the quality of the whole game. Any talk about quality of the demo is fair enough, but I personally would find it very hard to talk about value of the whole game when the only impression I have is of a short play and what I know about the length from reading other people's opinion on a forum.

I could play a demo and say 'this is not for me' but whether it represents a value proposition or not is impossible to say. I think you can only truly talk about value when you've played a significant part of the game. People who say 'I quite liked the game but I don't think it is worth 1,200 points' are entitled to their opinion, but their opinion is based on a huge assumption and shouldn't be the main voice in the discussion.

I think this is TTK's main beef - that value (or assumed value) becomes a bigger part of the discussion in the First Play threads than the game itself. I'd like to see a discussion on a ?10 game for once that didn't involve the price. I think that price discussion is, frankly, massively dull.

I'm with Adam as to my value system - it's what I take away from the game that's the only factor. The number of levels, the amount of code, the number of man hours spent on it are completely irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. If someone were to release a game with one level that they had written in a day that lasted only 30 minutes, but that 30 minutes was the greatest experience, I'd pay decent bucks for it.

[Brats]

From the get go, I knew that Limbo would be one of those games with a thread where people who liked it would simply refuse to accept a negative opinion from other posters.

That's not entirely true. You can't tar everyone with the same brush.

I like the game a lot, but I've always accepted that it's not for everyone (what game is?). I've also argued against the point that people who can't complete the first crate puzzle are 'stupid'.

I know what you mean though, I'm not a massive fan of Ico, Rez or Half Life 2. When you voice an opinion against those games, you'd better be ready for the backlash.

[Jebus]

Indeed, I don't mean to tar everyone with the same brush but in the case of Limbo, I called it early and was proven right, people calling other people an "idiot" because they refuse to accept a different point of view could be held without that point of view being held by an "idiot"!

I just think it's too subjective a thing to have any meaningful discussion over. People who purchased DeathSpank for 1200 and got 10 hours out of it will feel that has better value for money than Limbo at 1200 points, and that is their right to do so as it's their money. I'm not saying it's how I value things, or even that I think it's correct to do so in that manner, but I don't get why it's a big deal to someone that person x thinks it's not worth that price!

Maybe I'm missing something, but I've not seen pricing discussions take over first play threads unless the game is short with no arguement against that length. I don't recall seeing a discussion about pricing for games like Shadow Complex, Trials HD or even more recently, DeathSpank?

Once again, for the record I do like Limbo, I think it's a "good game" but nothing more.

[prinnysquad]

What you seem to be arguing though, is that if you saw the first 15 minutes of a film and walked out, thinking "This is the most god awful arse ****ting load of donkey balls my poor arse has ever been forced to sit through" then for some reason your opinion is invalid because you didn't force yourself to sit through the rest of it!

I can see where Boris is coming from. I don't think there's anything inherently bad about someone abandoning a game, or a film, or a book, or whatever, after exposure to just a fraction of it. I've done it myself. But I'd never presume to say that my opinion of something after such a short exposure wasn't limited. I would qualify it - 'from what I've seen, it's ...' It's not an invalid opinion, but I would feel that my opinion would have its limitations. I would have a very measured scepticism towards the game/whatever, but concede that I hadn't seen all it had to offer.

People are saying that others who defend Limbo are doing so with some bizarre fervour. I can understand that - it is clearly a game that taps into something in some people. But I also think some people in these two threads that are defending the right to comment so conclusively and defiantly on something after only a small portion of it aren't appreciative enough of the limitations of such an impression. If you base eveything you see/play/read on only a bitesize chunk, and vehemently stand by that initial opinion thereafter, then in some cases you really are cutting your nose off to spite your face. Of course it is my prerogative to do this, and an early rejection may turn out to be the best thing ever. But the opinion of someone who had seen the whole kit and kaboodle would, personally, intrigue me. Had I got it wrong? Surely we've all played games better than the demo? Games that have a poor first section then get immeasurably better? Watched films that start off poorly, but whose characters, story and setting grab you? Read a book that doesn't click to start with. This can, of course, work the opposite - the best thing since sliced bread levels out.
I watched the first four episodes of 24 and abandoned it. Someone loaned me the box set and said, give it another try. Had I ranted and raved about my opinion being just as valid, it's not my thing, it's the same characters and premise throughout - how could I like it? - blah blah, then I would have pissed on my own chips. After another few episodes I was hooked. Therefore, I would say that my initial opinion of it wasn't invalid, just ill-formed, due to my limited experience of it. And that's the crunch - it was limited. I'm not saying that that everyone should sit through everything they hate all the way to the bitter end. But personally I recognise that if I don't, then my opinion has its limitations, and had I seen the whole thing, then my opinion would, for my purposes, be more complete. Of course, my opinion may not change. Or get worse! But then I know that the whole thing just plain sucks for me.

The first play threads are full of people who started impressed, then get less so about a game, or vice-versa. That sort of dialogue is vital. If the first play threads were full of people saying 'it's great' of 'it's ****' after the first hour, then not posting anymore further impressions, well that would sodding useless frankly.

[Jebus]

I get where you are coming from Prinny but I honestly didn't see anyone saying "I tried the Trial, what a **** game", more a case of "This isn't for me" or "It's okay but I didn't like it enough to spend £10 on". Like it or not, that's their right.

The price is just the barrier to entry, if the trial is good enough then the price (gamers buy everything and anything) will be irrelevant.

[Brats]

Price does take over some downloadable games threads. Braid was another example, yet there were some people who bought the game after slagging its price and loved it.

I've completed both DeathSpank and Limbo, and for me Limbo was better value although it took me about a thirds of the time. Although DeathSpank took longer, I felt it was padded out towards the end and about two thirds of the way through I wanted it to end. I still enjoyed it a lot, but it did get repetitive.

Limbo on the other hand never got repetitive. One of the big pluses for Limbo is its lack of flab and lack of repetition. Ideas are used and then discarded whereas other games would make much more use of them. I enjoyed every puzzle and I get the feeling that a lot of stuff ended up on the cutting room floor and they only used the best stuff.

That to me has a 'value'. It's not the greatest analogy, but it's like comparing an all you can eat buffet at the local Chinese with a meal at quality local family restaurant. You get much more food at the buffet, but the restaurant has much better food. Which is the best value?

[Jebus]

You get much more food at the buffet, but the restaurant has much better food. Which is the best value?

The answer to this question is obviously that Yaris game!

[prinnysquad]

I get where you are coming from Prinny but I honestly didn't see anyone saying "I tried the Trial, what a **** game", more a case of "This isn't for me" or "It's okay but I didn't like it enough to spend £10 on". Like it or not, that's their right.

The price is just the barrier to entry, if the trial is good enough then the price (gamers buy everything and anything) will be irrelevant.

There were comments, however, such as 'dull', 'lacking in enjoyment', 'style no substance', 'puzzles trying to be too clever'. These are comments based on the limited experience of the demo which are subject to change. Reading between the lines, these are the comments most getting under the skin of the Limbo Defence Force. Tangibles that can change - unlike, say, criticism of the visual style or control scheme, which are (usually!) constants.

I entirely qualified what I was saying with the 'it's their right to do so' proviso. But personally, I recognise the limitations of my impressions of a bitesized chunk, compared to experiencing the full thing. I've been burnt many times by a wrong first impression.

[ezee ryder]

OK, so is the demo or trial of LIMBO not a representative of the full game? Are the puzzles vastly different in their implementation?!

I can't believe people are getting so "upset" because some people who played the trial/demo of LIMBO commented on it with opinions that didn't match theirs. Does that mean the people who played the trial and had positive opinions shouldn't be allowed to say anything too?!

My "puzzles trying to be clever" comment, I still totally stand by it. A number of people I know who have played the full game have come back to me with similar comments so I'm not totally alone in my thinking. So what if people made comments such as "dull" or "lacking in enjoyment" after playing the trial/demo?! Are they not allowed to give their opinion because it might upset the LIMBO lovers?!

As Jebus hinted, I guess we should change the first play thread rules to "do not comment on a game until you have completed the full game or got to a certain point as your opinion does not matter before that and you might upset people who have completed the game or love it more than life itself".