video games are dying

[Ady]

What I do see in more recent years is that big name, big selling games offered by the West can be amongst the very best on offer. Stuff like Vice City, KOTOR and Halo should be cherished and yet the hardcore deride them for being popular.

I can't say I've noticed this. If anything, it's those who can't appreciate a good game unless its Japanese that deride the above.

Incidentally, all those who criticse Nintendo for not having games like Vice City should check out the GC Die Hard game. In many respects, it is the GameCube's "answer to Vice City", but it was totally ignored.

Proof that 'doing a Sony' isn't the answer.

[Ikaruga]

Die Hard Vendetta was rushed garbage.

"you are the fanboy ****"

[Ady]

Die Hard Vendetta was rushed garbage.

"you are the fanboy ****"

Hardly. I have no allegieances and own many consoles (try reading some of my other posts before you judge me).

My point was that people often criticise Nintendo for not having Vice City like content. DHV was (pretty much) yet that's conveniently forgotten about.

Whether it was any good or not is beside the point, on a more popular platform, it would've sold anyway.

Oh, and you talk ****, soundbite boy.

[Ikaruga]

Hardly. I have no allegieances and own many consoles (try reading some of my other posts before you judge me).

My point was that people often criticise Nintendo for not having Vice City like content. DHV was (pretty much) yet that's conveniently forgotten about.

Whether it was any good or not is beside the point, on a more popular platform, it would've sold anyway.

Oh, and you talk ****, soundbite boy.

At ease solider.

It was supposed to be a joke, in relation to this thread. Tbh, for your misjudgement of my comment, you really deserve no reply.

DHV was nothing like VC and in no way was marketed in the same manner as rockstar's game. It definately didn't have the same moral-implications.

As for 'sountbite boy', firstly read my very valid reply on page 3. You'll find it's both intelligent and well informed. As for my age, well you'll find i'm an adult much like i'm led (in everything but your last post) to believe you are.

[Brats]

What I do see in more recent years is that big name, big selling games offered by the West can be amongst the very best on offer. Stuff like Vice City, KOTOR and Halo should be cherished and yet the hardcore deride them for being popular.

I can't say I've noticed this. If anything, it's those who can't appreciate a good game unless its Japanese that deride the above.

Often the hardcore seem to fall into that category (at least they do round here ).

Imo gaming is going through a similar transitional period that cinema went through in the seventies. People were worried with the emergence of the mega blockbuster such as Star Wars and Jaws that small, intersting films wouldn't get made any more.

Of course that all got proved to be complete bollocks. There are just as many interesting films made today as there have ever been. For every Bad Boys 2, Matrix Reloaded or Pirates of the Caribean there is a City of God, Mystic River or Intolerable Cruelty.

I think Videogames will go the same way as films. They'll be a studio system that makes most of the stuff that sells well and makes the odd masterpiece. Then they'll be the Auteurs who work under their own rules and produce the more challenging stuff. It's a system that works and it's all good .

[Ady]

It was supposed to be a joke, in relation to this thread. Tbh, for your misjudgement of my comment, you really deserve no reply.

Then colour me grateful that you bothered.

DHV was nothing like VC and in no way was marketed in the same manner as rockstar's game. It definately didn't have the same moral-implications.

I never said they were. Let me explain:

People often criticise Nitendo for not having any 'mature games' on its console.

Now, as we both know, what the masses call 'mature' (ie blood, guns, swearing etc) is not actually mature at all. More adolescent fantasy. This is, what they seem to want, however.

The above GC game (despite not being very good) had this in spades, as did the superior VC.

The specifics -in this instance- are irrelevant.

Either way, my point was 'blood, shooting and swearing' will not suddenly make Nintendo popular. That was my only point.

[Ikaruga]

I understand your point regarding Nintendo. I never had a problem with this. I objected to the use of DHV being used as a comparable title to Vice City in terms of it's shock factor with the general public.

I found your 'you talk ****' comment a horrible response though.

[Papercut]

I think Videogames will go the same way as films. They'll be a studio system that makes most of the stuff that sells well and makes the odd masterpiece. Then they'll be the Auteurs who work under their own rules and produce the more challenging stuff. It's a system that works and it's all good .

I hope that happens, but as I said in my previous post I don't think it will. Certainly not with this generation.

Video games cost too much to produce these days. Too many compromises are made so that the marketroids perceive original games as potentially commercial, even for fringe stuff.

There is no underground, there is no fringe. Border Down is a bad example as that was very cheap to produce, and only released in Japan. Unity and Cubivore are good examples, but there are very very few games of this kind nowadays.

If Sony will not support minority interest games (and they don't) this will continue to be the case, until someone topples them. Innovative developers are just too financially vulnerable at the moment to go it alone.

Thats why I said innovation lies with microsoft, I see them as the only company capable of breaking Sony's monopoly and giving us something new.

If you want a good example of the market's intolerance of fringe interests, you only need to look at the ever more agressive stance taken towards importing...

[Ady]

II found your 'you talk ****' comment a horrible response though.

Soory. It was in response to your 'fanboy ****' comment whose intended humour passed me by.

[Brats]

I hope that happens, but as I said in my previous post I don't think it will. Certainly not with this generation.

Video games cost too much to produce these days. Too many compromises are made so that the marketroids perceive original games as potentially commercial, even for fringe stuff.

Games still cost nothing like as much as films to produce, and yet many, many films are made that will be critically acclaimed but will never make their money back. Yet they are still made. I see no reason why this won't happen with videogames and you haven't addressed any reasons as to why you think the opposite.

There is no underground, there is no fringe. Border Down is a bad example as that was very cheap to produce, and only released in Japan. Unity and Cubivore are good examples, but there are very very few games of this kind nowadays.

Arguably because up to this point there has been no need for a fringe, just as with cinema in the 1940's there was no need for studio system independent of Hollywood. When the need arose, so did the fringe.

Anyway, I disagree that the current fringe is as small as you maintain. Ikaruga and Psyvariar were fringe and they have both been released in the UK despite the certianty that they wouldn't sell well. Even Counterstrike was underground (albeit one that became a huge success).

Innovative developers are just too financially vulnerable at the moment to go it alone.

Good talent will often find support in the oddest of places. David Fincher hasn't made a financially succesful film since Seven, and yet studios are queing up to sign him and he's made three (flop) films since.

If you want a good example of the market's intolerance of fringe interests, you only need to look at the ever more agressive stance taken towards importing...

That's more to do with the growth of importing than anything else and nothing to do with being against the fringe. The film industry is ruthlessly against DVD importing and yet it supports an alternative industry quite happily.

[Ikaruga]

Soory. It was in response to your 'fanboy ****' comment whose intended humour passed me by.

I sense a make-up hug. No kissing though, gayboy

[Ady]

Soory. It was in response to your 'fanboy ****' comment whose intended humour passed me by.

I sense a make-up hug. No kissing though, gayboy

Ugh, you though of it, gaylord!

I cannot believe I just wrote that.

[Ikaruga]

Ugh, you though of it, gaylord!

I cannot believe I just wrote that.

See, we're pals already!

[Papercut]

I see no reason why this won't happen with videogames and you haven't addressed any reasons as to why you think the opposite.

I did, you just disagreed with it.

- Its too much of a financial risk.

- The marketing types will dumb down the game.

- Sony, with the dominant platform, may attempt to block or dumb down the game.

You only have to look at the number of devcos going out business or franchising to see this is true.

[tankplanker]

The whole funding model for independant films can be completely different from the funding of the majority of games.

Independant films are often funded by private investors, who either do it for the kudos or for the huge returns that a very small minorty of independants achieve.

I do not see this happening with fringe games - they don't make the same sort of money as a reasonable performing independant film.

In the UK there are multiple independant distribution channels into movie theaters , plus alternate streams such as DVDs. Game distribution in this country is controlled by and large by Game, if they aren't going to stock it, why bother publishing?

If the next generation of games consoles allows for downloadable games content running in a similar fashion as flash games then I think we might see more fringe games.

This is dependant on Sony & MS (Nintendo won't ever adopt this model IMO) dropping or reducing the licensing cost to use this service - which they would be reluctant to do as they make the majority of their profit via this revune stream.