Next Gen Im going Retro

[Golgo]

Of course not, I never said that, the point is that we are all arguing here over the preservation of video games ... VIDEO GAMES, not literature from a thousand years ago, or the dead sea scrolls. In reality in the collective history of the human race, I don't think video games are somehow going to define out existence, that was the point.

Well, it's true that none of us can know that, but they might. And why shouldn't they? Much of the literature of the past, that which we now think of as great art and the finest expression of its culture, was often just the popular entertainment of its day. And often it survived simply because it was lucky enough to survive, rather than its quality. The Epic of Gilgamesh, for example, survived because it was inscribed into super-durable clay tablets rather than more perishable material. The idea that one should be happy in allowing any art form to be erased, when there is an alternative, seems to me odd. Digital conservation is a growing field in musems, and I imagine it will one day have to come to the rescue of videogames.

[wakka]

Like Sketcz, Jake and others, I think games are important and need to be preserved. Although I've frequently played devil's advocate on here and argued the points in favour of digital distribution, I also think it's really worrying that games or large portions of games could be lost entirely when servers are shut down.

But digital distribution is this weird thing, where it's simultaneously the enemy of longevity and also its best friend. It means games that received limited print runs, were only released in Japan and are hoarded by collectors can be available to everyone at any time, as well as being preserved indefinitely on multiple server hard drives. On the other hand private networks like PSN mean we could lose stuff forever at the flick of a switch, if that's the only copy of it available.

An organisational body needs to exist to ensure the balanced preservation of videogames in hard and cloud copies. Sketcz?? Have you got any free time?

Of course not, I never said that, the point is that we are all arguing here over the preservation of video games ... VIDEO GAMES, not literature from a thousand years ago, or the dead sea scrolls. In reality in the collective history of the human race, I don't think video games are somehow going to define out existence, that was the point.

Literature from 1000 years ago was once modern.

Shakespeare's plays were viewed in their day as the trash entertainment of the masses, heavily disdained by Puritanical Church authorities, and blamed as the source of the spread of the plague. Essentially the ITV2 of the Jacobean and Elizabethan periods.

There is no way we can say that pioneering interactive entertainment like Super Mario World, Shenmue and Ridge Racer won't be viewed in 400 years as Shakespeare is viewed now. I'm not saying they will, but it's certainly a possibility.

[originalbadboy]

Well, it's true that none of us can know that, but they might. And why shouldn't they? Much of the literature of the past, that which we now think of as great art and the finest expression of its culture, was often just the popular entertainment of its day. And often it survived simply because it was lucky enough to survive, rather than its quality. The Epic of Gilgamesh, for example, survived because it was inscribed into super-durable clay tablets rather than more perishable material. The idea that one should be happy in allowing any art form to be erased, when there is an alternative, seems to me odd. Digital conservation is a growing field in musems, and I imagine it will one day have to come to the rescue of videogames.

It's fair to say that video games add to the cultural collectiveness (new word) of the human race thus far. However I can't see people in 2000 years time comparing COD to how we see the Bible for example. The trouble with video games is that they are a play thing, a digital toy as it were. They are not a 'work of art' for the most part, even if we as (true) gamers think that certain games are.

Music is listened to, Movies are watched, Paintings are pondered over ... You play games so they don't have collectively as much cultural significance, maybe they should and maybe some day they will.

[Golgo]

I'm not getting into the 'art' debate, but rest assured there are criteria and definitions within the last 2500 years of art theory - which I know a lot about - that can easily be aligned with videogames.

[wakka]

Fully disagree (with originalbadboy). How about if we remove the word 'game' and replace it with 'interactive entertainment'?

Games are an incredibly valuable and unique addition to our methods of expression and entertainment as human beings. You can include all kinds of messages, values and ideas in games, just as you can in a painting, song, or film. You can also express yourself visually, aurally AND in terms of gameplay, as well as including as much written text as you like too.

Sure, COD 9 probably won't be looked back on as a species-defining piece of art. But there will always be blockbuster trash around. Literature is unquestionably a form of art and cultural expression, but that doesn't mean all the crappy airport novels and chick lit summer books will be read in hundreds of years to come. The great books will. And the great games will, too. At least that's what I believe.

[originalbadboy]

Fully disagree (with originalbadboy). How about if we remove the word 'game' and replace it with 'interactive entertainment'?

Games are an incredibly valuable and unique addition to our methods of expression and entertainment as human beings. You can include all kinds of messages, values and ideas in games, just as you can in a painting, song, or film. You can also express yourself visually, aurally AND in terms of gameplay, as well as including as much written text as you like too.

Sure, COD 9 probably won't be looked back on as a species-defining piece of art. But there will always be blockbuster trash around. Literature is unquestionably a form of art and cultural expression, but that doesn't mean all the crappy airport novels and chick lit summer books will be read in hundreds of years to come. The great books will. And the great games will, too. At least that's what I believe.

I completely agree with that btw .. even though you completely disagreed with me!

['Press Start']

But what about games where the full game is shipped complete, but the developer creates actual new content for people to purchase if they wish?

I agree. I see nothing wrong with paying ?40 for a game then 1 year later DLC is released which actually adds to the game. Many times I have completed a game and thought, I wish there was more. Dark Souls being an good example of DLC.

That is DLC done correctly of course.

[Brad]

^^^^ Fine

We've had this forever already. Used to be called expansion discs. Better as discs of course because not reliant on PSN/Live to play the expansion.

[Sketcz]

So that is the basis of your argument for embracing collective amnesia in the present? No need for memory/history at all, then, because the sun is going to blow up in a few billion years? I'm sorry, but that is absurd.

Actually, I think it's very Zen. Pure nihilism. No desires because everything is finite and irrelevant. Ultimately you will cease to exist, so why strive to experience things the memory of which will cease to exist upon death, as all things upon the Earth will some day cease to exist. Existence is eventual non-existence.

I'm calling Originalbadboy out as the actual Dalai Lama posting on games forums. Where's my five quid?

An organisational body needs to exist to ensure the balanced preservation of videogames in hard and cloud copies. Sketcz?? Have you got any free time?

I spend my time desperately trying to interview developers before they die (as several have already - including some I have interviewed).

I would dearly love to spend my days making copies and preserving software, inputting release dates, scanning documents, and making digital backups from original hardware. Preferably in an underground bunker.

But this needs government funding, and the government is terrified of the word "piracy" because of media lobbying. There's been some small movements in the US, with certain museums, but it's going to take a long time before it's any good. Really, the entire current economic model would need to be abandoned, so we can set about archiving things legally. Until then, piracy is our only hope.

WHY HISTORY NEEDS SOFTWARE PIRACY

However I can't see people in 2000 years time comparing COD to how we see the Bible for example.

You can't see into the future full stop. None of us can. Please stop passing judgement on what will be perceived as valuable by future people. (Unless you are actually the Dalai Lama). A long while prior to renaissance painting we had cave paintings, which for all intents and purposes was basically graffiti about penises and hunting animals, but is today considered historically significant. In the Victorian era we had penny dreadfuls, which no one today reads. Perhaps that's how COD will be viewed in the future.

We don't know where entertainment software will go.

I for one staunchly think games are worthwhile. I don't care about the art debate, but I do care about game software and the documenting of it.

[originalbadboy]

I'm calling Originalbadboy out as the actual Dalai Lama posting on games forums.

Or I could be talking a complete load of bollocks ... take your pick ..

Perhaps that's how COD will be viewed in the future.

If it ever does then in all honesty we deserve to go extinct.

[Sketcz]

If it ever does then in all honesty we deserve to go extinct.

Penny Dreadfuls are regarded as pulpy, trashy writing, not representative of the best that the era produced (for example... something by Dickens).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_dreadfuls

What I meant was, perhaps COD will someday be regarded as we now regard Penny Dreadfuls. Mainstream fodder. Not very sophisticated. Compared to say... Shadow of the Colossus. Or whatever. It doesn't matter. The point is history will make the decision, not us.

[Pikate]

It's not about cultural significance. Scholars of Franz Kafka or F.W. Murnau don't suppress Video Games. We as gamers just make them disposable. Whereas most people will make a book or dvd collection over their lives and re-read/re-watch their favourites over time even now in the age of physical media with every new Forza/COD an earlier entry is traded/sold or will go unplayed forever and a massive majority will never think twice about that. The PS2/Xbox/PS3/Xbox 360 will never be remember/cherished like the SNES/N64/Wii/Dreamcast etc. Truly stand out games will always be preserved and available because there's a commercial market for that and it's in the publisher's interest. On XBLA alone they have Daytona USA, Virtua Fighter 2, Jet Set Radio HD, Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike Online, Darkstalkers: Resurrection and there's Nintendo's Virtual Console. We will always see that kind of thing. Next gen I imagine we'll see Jet Set Radio Future, Psychonauts. The one after that original BioShock and Okami.

We're also assuming Video Games are an exact equivalent of a book or a film but they're not. While historically many have a narrative, increasingly modern games are dependent on an online userbase (Portal 2 Co-op, LittleBigPlanet's user-created levels and TF2 or COD's multiplayer) but with every new entry in the franchise an older game will die a little or completely within months. As we go further down that line many games are becoming more akin to a great Live Performance (The Beatles in the Cavern Club, "Book of Mormon" on Broadway with the Original Cast) and so games are becoming a collective experience, a moment in time and every generation will have it's own equivalent (Sex Pistols in the 70s/80s, Ibiza DJs in the 90s, Robbie at Knebworth, Jay-Z at Glastonbury) and while we have those songs on albums to preserve that it's not the same thing and in gaming there'll be remakes, sequels and it's the franchises we'll preserve. Infact already we're mostly playing the same games over and over, remade to make the most of the latest technology or the flavour of the month location/setting.

EDIT: That's arguably the biggest problem with gaming, we are too concerned with preservation and we don't forget the past we want the same games over and over. Video Games aren't films, films aren't plays/opera/ballet, plays/opera/ballet aren't pop music. There's a lot of generalisation and irrational leaps being made in this thread.

[speedlolita]

Only bad games die a little or completely within months.

[wakka]

I wonder what kind of XRGB you'll need to get a decent Megadrive picture on a holodeck.

[Guts]

****ing hell. If you bought a film and it stopped ten minutes before the end because you hadn't downloaded the "ending pack" you'd go berserk. Why accept it for games?

Let's not blow things out of proportion. What game has done this? In case of Bioshock we're talking about extra ingame money and a "custom shotgun". Those are "extra" and affect the gameplay in no way. If someone wants to waste their money to buy them, then so what? It doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game what-so-ever.