IT employment

[Valken]

Nuts to you... the fact remains that there's more to it than qualifications. This isn't ego it's an observation of collegues both past and present.

The ones with the ego tend to be those without a clue.

[Pij]

From an observation of people ive worked with. Peeps with degrees and MCSE's have all been the worst, the better ones are the ones that did it before a job because they enjoyed it.

(not saying it always works like this though)

[Super Stu]

Didn't want to get embroiled in this, but I think "there's more to it than qualifications" can be applied to most things. To cite an analogy, I absolutely maintain that you couldn't get a 1st on this degree by simply regurgitating facts presented, you needed a flare for taking said knowledge and applying some lateral thinking, which I sadly lacked. However, at the end of the day, you were taught science, and it was a core knowledge you could take on to do other related things.

Surely the same is applicable? Are not the MCSE and related qualifications something which you can build on? Ultimately pointless on their own perhaps, but the same is probably true of a lot of qualifications. That doesn't mean they need be dismissed outright, though.

[Sarkster]

dont take it seriously. im teasing, and a little bemused by all this "Experience is what you need son, dont bother with these text book pieces of ****/ I learn teverything I know of the back of a fag packet and it helps that I was born with an innate ability to PWN the world at IT"

Reason being, im sat in an office, on my own, supporting 70-80 users over 2 sites, and about 6 servers hosting our main applications. I started this job with no qualifications whatsoever, and only a tenuous link to the job by the fact that ive "tinkered" with PC's (hardware and a little software) from a very early age. Ive been doing this job for 2 years now and can competantly run our systems. I have advised the management on IT kit and infrastructure in a 3rd office we will be opening soon and saved them thousands by advising what kit to buy. Problem being, I work on my own. I dont sit amongst 8 other IT guru's who's brain I can pick and learn from.

So, Books are sadly the ONLY way to go for me.

[Valken]

Yeah, but you're learning from books and applying it to a real life situation rather than pissing off on courses and proclaiming you know it all while simultaneously ****ing it up.

I can see why you would think the point we're making is conceited.

It's not the courses... it's the fact that some people get them and think it makes them invincible IT machines

[Dirty Sanchez]

Keep plugging away Stu.

I wouldn't limit myself geographically though. Back in 99 I fell foul of not taking a permie role whilst on contract, result = contract not extended and new permie guy (who was ****e) recruited. I had a peachy contract set up at Morgan Stanley at ?65 an hour, which never got off the ground.

Over the next 12 months, yes even Y2K, I was out of work for a total of 9 months. Up until this time I'd always stated I'd NEVER work for Sky (I'd worked for them indirectly for a while), and NEVER live in Scotland.

Being out of work for 9 months was more than persuasive. I'm still here 4.5 years later, converted from lucrative contract to permie. Prospects are more than good, life is sweet.

Back in 99/00 life was not sweet, money was like water, daughter born, housing a problem (being rented out, so capital was there).

Stick at it and don't let them grind you down.

[Commander Marklar]

In fact probably the only 'proper background' is experience.

I mate, I agree with you there -- I read what I posted back and you can change what I said to experience

In fact, there's lots of things I agree with over the past few posts, most contradicting with one another Luck of the draw then

Here's two more anecdotes that fly in the face of it all:

Two people on our team were recently employed. One, with no formal qualifications but an overall knowledge of programming logic (without real specifics) -- he could code anything to save his life, in pretty much any language. He went for a job coding in a product our company puts out (one I used to maintain), he'd never touched it two days before a practical test and got 98% in the practical. His interview was mostly talking about football, he was offered the job. This guy would (and usually did) talk to anyone, very friendly geezer, very bright but you wouldn't know it to talk to him. He doesn't work here now, he got a job coding in C# for nearly double the pay here (his pay, not mine ).

Second person one the team, who is still with us, couldn't right an 'if' statement in C during the practical interview. We employed this person. Why? She's female (just) >_< She was employed to keep another female on the team happy!

You could go for the mangina look, you never know.

[Super Stu]

Right, had a ponder over lunch and it seems programming would probably be the best avenue to take, as the core guff is already in my head. That said, I have only a vague concept of the development cycle but at least some notion of quality assurance, having done it for something else.

That said, is there a particular area of growth or decline at the moment? Stick with the web guff like PHP and ASP/.NET or have a ponder at picking C back up in win32?

Cheers for the encouragement Sanchez, and everyone else. Got a little direction here and feeling a bit better about it this afternoon.

[Ish]

I'd take the C# or Java route these days rather than the C / C++ route. Particularly if your basically just starting out. We (as in the company I work for) struggle to get C# deveopers and we've found there's quite a bit of competition for the decent / experienced ones. As a result we've taken on a number of trainees.

Which suggests its a growth area....

[Tom Salter]

Totally depends on what you want to do Stu. C# with integration with SQL servers, C++/ASM if you want to go into embedded systems, you're spoilt for choice. It's important with a programming job that you enjoy what you do - there's nothing worse than working on a programming project that you have no interest whatsoever in.

[DjSatansfury]

Half the people on my HND course dont know arse from elbow. Amazingly its these type of people who usually get better grades than I.

Then again i am a lazy bastard

[Dirty Sanchez]

If you are intent on programming then concentrate on getting core skills/knowledge with an emphsis on backend/serverside/connectivity. Any monkey can code in an IDE, make pretty pages and build something that looks nice. Worthless (not quite, but the demand/supply tells a story).

No idea how you start though and that seems to be your biggest challenge.

[Super Stu]

So, as pointed out, interfacing with SQL and such like? Heh, I was never one for pretty interfaces.

Starting will involve getting up to speed on this c# and finding a pet project that's interesting.

Cheers for the help guys. Ah incidentally, I gather there are programming certs (mcp?). Worth getting in addition to having something tangible to demonstrate?

[Canton Province]

Cheers for the help guys. Ah incidentally, I gather there are programming certs (mcp?). Worth getting in addition to having something tangible to demonstrate?

MCP's are Microsoft Certified Proffesional Certifications, therefore are only specific to microsoft products. You could get a MCP in Microsoft Visual Basic if you wanted, or Visual C++. These are logical steps towards entering a career as a programmer or systems analyst.

[Tom Salter]

I say **** IT and go and be a farmer or a labourer, loads more money available without the arse-kissing, fannying around, dealing with awkward-completely-computer-illiterate-****bags-who-get-paid-far-too-much-money-for-stroking-their-belly-all-day-long-and-eating-doughnuts-whilst-complaining-that-you-are-getting-paid-too-much-type-of-people.

Tis true ;p