LCD/Plasma/CRT/DLP - questions

[andrewfee]

Even the Tosh WLT68 didn't look that great (but then maybe it needs more tweaking). The Fuji on the other hand blew me away just on the standard default settings.

The defaults on the Toshiba are awful. Mine looks nothing like that now.

The Fujis are calibrated out of the box I believe, and have image processing on par with an external video processor, which is one of the reasons they're so insanely expensive. (their 37" 1080p LCD was supposed to be coming out for ?3000 and couldn't even be wall-mounted)

[Kotatsu Neko]

Am I missing a trick here? Whats the big fascination with LCD displays

They still have a significant lead in resolution over plasma. Many 42" plasmas aren't even HD at all, they're 1024x768 or resolutions around that area and have hevily distorted pixels. A long way from 1080p.

I'd agree LCDs have plenty of issues, but they are slowly getting better and old problems such as afterblur are basically gone. Black levels are still poor though.

Personally I rate resolution pretty highly, and I'd miss being able to watch HD DVDs in 'true HD' if I was to switch to a lower resolution display like a plasma. That may change with Pioneer's new 8G plasmas apparently, which are not only 1080p, but have SED/OLED like contrast ratios.

[andrewfee]

There's far more important things to image quality than resolution. (to a point) The latest LCDs have black levels rivalling, and on some models, bettering Plasmas, so that is no longer an issue.

For me, I just don't like the Plasma image. The colour reproduction is great, but I hate the dithering, misfiring pixels, panel materials (glare is a big issue) noise (all plasmas buzz rather loudly and many have fans) image retention (totally unacceptable) and motion handling.

They do produce a more CRT-like image, but I wouldn't necessarily say that's a good thing.

[EJG1980]

I do really love the image a plasma gives, but the image retention really annoyed me and eventually made me switch back to an LCD. Whenever I got to a part in Gears of War that I found tough (and thus kept dying and had the loading screen popping up every 30 seconds) I'd eventually be able to see the Gears of War logo in the middle of the screen when I got to a dark section Had to pause and put on the white wash to get rid of it, not ideal.

[Brats]

Thanks for the replies guys. I went looking for a TV with completely open mind about both types. Like most people I suspect I was thinking very much about resolution. I was very surprised with the results.

From the tests I did, some of those issues you mention like image retention and buzz are just not there any more. None of the screens I checked had a fan and the only noise I could here was if I put my ear right up to the bezel. There was 50" pioneer in the shop sat on the DVD menu screen of cars. I asked the guy if he should change it due to burn in. He just laughed.

Likewise, some of the issues plasma fans always complain about LCDs (like viewing angles and ghosting) seem to have disappeared on the better LCDs.

Maybe I do like a more 'CRT-like' image. I've often had people comment on how good my Loewe looks (even those with flat screen displays) and tbh I wouldn't be thinking of upgrading if it were not knackered (BTW I checked out the new Samsung HD CRTs and was bitterly disappointed).

Based on my initial research Plasmas and CRTs look much more natural. The colours are right and the image slightly softer than LCDs. However I do accept that LCDs require a lot more tuning to get right, so perhaps the comparison isn't fair (and it makes shooping for any screen a hell of lot more difficult). But I can't see how you can expect an display that requires a backlight (no matter how low it is turned down) to have the same black levels as the best plasmas.

For the moment at least the Fuji is the best screen I have ever seen anywhere (even though it has a lower resolution than most LCDs, which definately proves the point about resolution). The difficult decision is at the moment is whether I go for that (at £2,400) or the cheaper panny at £1,000 less, which is not quite as good (but then I could buy a fantastic scaler for the difference). I should definately trial some more LCDs first, but how will I know if they've been set up to the optimum image?

[Roost]

My dads got a lovely panny plasma, freeview, sky, dvd's etc look stunning on it. Was just always worried about playing games on it and the image retention as mentioned above.

Was tempted to get one myself but opted for the W series instead. Next display will be going back to a projector though that's for sure i miss not being able to use the one i've got sitting in a box doing nothing

[Brats]

The impression I am forming (based on my own tastes alone) are that LCDs are best for gaming and PC use (1:1 pixel mapping, sharp/bright image, no retention, etc) whereas Plasmas are better for general TV viewing (more natural colours, soft image, less issues with SD material).

I know there are people who will disagree, but as my needs for the TV are for TV and films only (games and PC are upstairs connected to a monitor) I'm definately erring to the plasma side.

[charlesr]

This 50" panny plasma is 1,366 x 768 pixels (i.e. proper 1:1 widescreen). It's around £1800.

I viewed this 42" version, but it was only 1024x768. It was great for SD and 720p gaming and for 720p films via component (especially fast moving stuff). No good for xbox360 in vga though. £1200. If you just want it for films and TV you will love this screen.

I viewed this 50" 1,920 x 1,080 pixels and thought it was amazing for everything. Except the price.... £4200

LCD is the only way to get 1080p at a reasonable price at the moment, or at anything less than 50".

I like the crisp image of the LCDs, but not the backlight effect.
I like the natural look of the plasmas and the way it dealt with high speed movement like Sonic1.

[Brats]

I viewed this 42" version, but it was only 1024x768. It was great for SD and 720p gaming and for 720p films via component (especially fast moving stuff). No good for xbox360 in vga though. ?1200. If you just want it for films and TV you will love this screen.

That's exactly the screen that I viewed and I came away with exactly the same views. The Fuji was even better (but a lot more dosh).

[bash]

Fujitsu are bringing out a 1080p 37" LCD (their first LCD) soon and its gonna retail at £3000!!! Apparently people who saw it at trade shows thought it was Plasma cos the black levels were so good!

Cant wait!

[charlesr]

Doesn't that kinda defeat the point? If they thought it was a Plasma, why don't you just get a 37" plasma for half the price?

I typed that and then realised.... resolution.

[Brats]

If you use watch TV and play games the same amount, then I could see how this could be the ideal TV.

[charlesr]

Does anyone do a 1,366 x 768 pixels plasma less than 50" ? e.g. 42?

[charlesr]

Also, those of you with panny plasmas: can you set a different overscan for each input? Or do you have to change it each time you select a different input.

[andrewfee]

From the tests I did, some of those issues you mention like image retention and buzz are just not there any more. None of the screens I checked had a fan and the only noise I could here was if I put my ear right up to the bezel. There was 50" pioneer in the shop sat on the DVD menu screen of cars. I asked the guy if he should change it due to burn in. He just laughed.

Not true; I had a 9th gen. Panasonic Plasma (still the current models I believe) and the buzzing on that was unbearable. (the larger sizes also have fans) The buzzing is due to the high voltages required to drive a plasma panel, it is inherent to the technology.

Plasma panel buzz is a normal phenomenon. Plasmas work on a totally different principle to colour televisions and have different operating characteristics. The level at which the operating buzz becomes noticeable is always subjective; one person may hear it whilst another does not. (link)

Image retention is still an issue; though it isn't as common on Panasonics. Burn-in has been pretty much eliminated though. (permanent damage)

Likewise, some of the issues plasma fans always complain about LCDs (like viewing angles and ghosting) seem to have disappeared on the better LCDs.

Not entirely. LCD viewing angles have improved a ton, but they're still not on the level of a Plasma/CRT. Ghosting is no longer an issue, but they're still not perfect with motion. Plasma keeps better sharpness with motion, but has far worse trailing behind moving objects. (virtually none on LCDs now)

Based on my initial research Plasmas and CRTs look much more natural. The colours are right and the image slightly softer than LCDs.

That's mostly due to set-up and image processing, which is why I would only recommend Sony/Toshiba LCDs, as most others don't have the options you need to get a good image. (Samsung sets force sharpness on you, many others don't allow you to drop the backlight low enough etc)

However I do accept that LCDs require a lot more tuning to get right, so perhaps the comparison isn't fair (and it makes shooping for any screen a hell of lot more difficult). But I can't see how you can expect an display that requires a backlight (no matter how low it is turned down) to have the same black levels as the best plasmas.

You may not believe that it's possible, but Sharp's latest HDTVs have now surpassed Panasonic and Pioneer Plasmas for black levels, and are getting better all the time. That said, I would not personally recommend a Sharp LCD. (awful viewing angles, motion handling and colour reproduction imo)

For the moment at least the Fuji is the best screen I have ever seen anywhere (even though it has a lower resolution than most LCDs, which definately proves the point about resolution). The difficult decision is at the moment is whether I go for that (at ?2,400) or the cheaper panny at ?1,000 less, which is not quite as good (but then I could buy a fantastic scaler for the difference). I should definately trial some more LCDs first, but how will I know if they've been set up to the optimum image?

If you're looking at a display in a shop, it will be on the "out of the box" settings, unless they have the remote lying around for people to use. If you can find the WLT68 somewhere that lets you adjust the settings, try the ones I've posted (though you'll need the backlight much higher)

If you can justify the money for the Fujitsu you might want to just go for it, but I don't see them being worth that kind of money, especially with SED, OLED and "Plasma 2.0" coming out in the next year or so which will, according to their claims, make it look rubbish.

The impression I am forming (based on my own tastes alone) are that LCDs are best for gaming and PC use (1:1 pixel mapping, sharp/bright image, no retention, etc) whereas Plasmas are better for general TV viewing (more natural colours, soft image, less issues with SD material).

I know there are people who will disagree, but as my needs for the TV are for TV and films only (games and PC are upstairs connected to a monitor) I'm definately erring to the plasma side.

I disagree. LCDs are best for gaming and PC use (imo) but that doesn't mean they're bad for TV/Film content. Using the settings I've posted, the Toshiba 37WLT68's colour reproduction is almost perfectly matched to the Rec.709 (HD) colourspace, producing very natural colour.

These days my viewing habits are probably 70/30 movies/tv & gaming.