Best possible N64 console query

[djjimbob]

Quick question - thought this the best thread for it.

I have a Hong Kong 64 which connects to my CRT via a Playtronix scart cable (not all pins are wired up).

I connect it via an Argos scart block and when I flick to RGB, I get a great picture (not sure this means it's actually RGB tho...)

However, when I hook it up to my Sony LCD TV, I just get rolling graphics on and off. I've tried swapping the cable with a standard SNES cable (split composite into scart) and get nothing at all on screen.

Does anybody know what kind of cable I should buy to get it to work on my LCD?

[Oldgamingfart]

Technically it should work fine over composite. The HK version should be PAL, but if it isn't then maybe the Sony can't accept NTSC (or only accepts it on a certain A/V input).

[Link83]

I'm very surprised to see this thread back up again after almost 4 and a 1/2 years since I first created it (Although I think a new thread might have been better at this point!)

Your situation sounds a bit confusing, but heres a few points that sprang to mind:-

- Unless your N64 has been RGB modded it will only output composite video over a standard Scart connection, even if you use the Argos switch box and switch to 'RGB'.

- You didn't say if you were using NTSC or PAL composite cables? Each has different components inside them, although im not sure which would be best for a Hong Kong N64 (I would need to see pictures of the motherboard to say which would be best)

- I have never seen inside a Hong Kong N64, but from what I have read online Hong Kong systems use PAL, but I also know that Hong Kong N64 games are 60Hz as I own a Hong Kong N64 game and it plays in 60Hz. If your interested you can see pics of the cartridge in this thread:-

http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22484

So i'm not entirely sure, but I imagine a Hong Kong N64 outputs PAL 60:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL#Multisystem_PAL_support_and_.22PAL_60.22

In particular its worth noting this part:-
"...PAL 60" (or "pseudo PAL") with "60" standing for 60 Hz (for 525/30), instead of 50 Hz (for 625/25). Some video game consoles also output a signal in this mode. Most newer television sets can display such a signal correctly but some will only do so (if at all) in black and white and/or with flickering/foldover at the bottom of the picture, or picture rolling..."

- Its possible that your Sony LCD TV doesn't like PAL 60 signals, if so its unlikely a cable will solve your problems. However, an RGB mod might avoid the issue entirely as RGB does not use colour encoding.

- If the problem is your Hong Kong N64 is outputting PAL 60, then a USA or Japanese N64 console might work fine on your Sony LCD TV since they output NTSC 60Hz which is a much more common standard and most modern TV's support NTSC 60Hz, although I must admit that I haven't yet come across a TV that didn't like PAL 60 (As a side note - if you fancy swapping your Hong Kong N64 for a USA N64 please let me know )

I hope that helps

[smouty]

I imported a HK N64 at launch. They were jap consoles with a UK psu.

[speedlolita]

I'd say the chance of his LCD not being compatible with NTSC is nil.

[Link83]

I'd say the chance of his LCD not being compatible with NTSC is nil.

I would agree, but then I cant think of many other explanations for the rolling picture they described

Also, I have read that many modern USA TV sets still dont like PAL signals, mostly it seems to be European TV's that are multi-standard in that regard, and djjimbob might not be based in the UK.

[Oldgamingfart]

He mentions an Argos SCART switch in the post, so likely to be UK based.

[egparadigm]

Wouldn't a rolling picture indicate a duff composite sync signal?
Although that obviously doesn't explain the differences between TVs...

[Link83]

Wouldn't a rolling picture indicate a duff composite sync signal?
Although that obviously doesn't explain the differences between TVs...

I completely agree - it does sound like a problem with composite sync.

In my post above I was just trying to list the most common causes for problems with composite sync which could cause a rolling picture, the main possibilities being using the wrong region composite cable, or the Sony LCD TV not 'liking' the video signal from the Hong Kong N64 for whatever reason.

I think we really need more information so we can narrow down the variables, for instance:-
- Exactly what video cables are being used? (eg. What region are they? What Nintendo console are they designed for? An NTSC Nintendo composite cable is different to the PAL SNES/N64 Composite cable, which is also different to the PAL GameCube composite cable!)
- How are the cables being connected? (eg. have you tried a direct connection to the TV? or is it going through a switch box/AV receiver?)
- Has the TV been tested with other consoles that output PAL 50Hz, PAL 60Hz, and NTSC 60Hz? If so does the picture roll with any of these settings?
- etc.

[dvdx2]

my jpn RGB modded n64 - didnt work on my old bravia LCD, I cant imagine why you would want to display it on an LCD, the resolution of the N64 output is so low, it looks terrible.

Best option

RGB modded n64
Sony trinitron 14" flatscreen

[SUMIRE]

Yeah, the reason why I kept my old sony trinitron was for the retro stuff. The RGB modded N64 looks amazing on my TV.

[djjimbob]

- Exactly what video cables are being used? (eg. What region are they? What Nintendo console are they designed for? An NTSC Nintendo composite cable is different to the PAL SNES/N64 Composite cable, which is also different to the PAL GameCube composite cable!)

First of all, I'm UK-based.

The cable that works on my CRT TV appears to be a bespoke cable made by the original seller (Playtronix). I have not tried a UK SNES cable with my CRT TV.

- How are the cables being connected? (eg. have you tried a direct connection to the TV? or is it going through a switch box/AV receiver?)

I will try this, but as far as I'm aware the Argos switch box is transparent.

- Has the TV been tested with other consoles that output PAL 50Hz, PAL 60Hz, and NTSC 60Hz? If so does the picture roll with any of these settings?
- etc.

My LCD TV can manually select between NTSC 35. and 43, PAL50 and 60 and SECAM or AUTO which does it for you. None of the settings worked but I got less picture on some of them obviously.

Tonight I think I will do a little table of all the permutations using both cable types (bespoke and standard UK SNES composite) with both TVs, with and without Argos box, with and without RGB button selected!

Thanks for showing interest people!

[smouty]

An NTSC Nintendo composite cable is different to the PAL SNES/N64 Composite cable, which is also different to the PAL GameCube composite cable!)

Link - Could you expand on this please as I find it hard to beleive. What is different as I never had any problems swapping cables between PAL and NTSC Snes/N64/GC although I prefer to use S-Vid where I can over composite.

[Link83]

- How are the cables being connected? (eg. have you tried a direct connection to the TV? or is it going through a switch box/AV receiver?)

I will try this, but as far as I'm aware the Argos switch box is transparent.

I had a switch box that I thought was transparent, until I started having a problem with the Dreamcast. I tried everything I could think of until I eventually tried connecting the video cable directly to the TV, and that solved the problem - so I definitely would not rule out the switch box.

My LCD TV can manually select between NTSC 35. and 43, PAL50 and 60 and SECAM or AUTO which does it for you. None of the settings worked but I got less picture on some of them obviously.

Have you tested your LCD TV with another console in all these video modes?

You have to think of this as a 'scientific test', and we need to narrow down the cause to either the console, cable, TV, or a mixture of all three.

Tonight I think I will do a little table of all the permutations using both cable types (bespoke and standard UK SNES composite) with both TVs, with and without Argos box, with and without RGB button selected!

I recommend you test it with an NTSC Composite cable if you can, because the UK/PAL Cable has an extra component inside as discussed below.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Link - Could you expand on this please as I find it hard to beleive. What is different as I never had any problems swapping cables between PAL and NTSC Snes/N64/GC although I prefer to use S-Vid where I can over composite.

Sure, a couple of years I was trying to make pinouts of the official Nintendo video cables and noticed that some cables had components inside the "MULTI OUT" plug, I made a thread about it over at the nfgforums here:-

http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3203.0

Basically I took apart every region cable I could find and found that although the NTSC Composite cables were just 'straight through', the PAL Composite cables were different (The S-Video and RGB cables are also different)

Official PAL SNES/N64 Composite cables have a 75ohm resistor between Composite video and ground, and the PAL GameCube Composite cable has the same 75ohm resistor but also adds a 220uF Capacitor as well. I made an expanded region/cable components chart here:-

http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:nintendomultiav

(Half way down the page)

The difference it makes to the picture quality wont always be obvious, but it is there. If you use an NTSC cable on a PAL console it usually results in a washed-out overbright picture, and if you use a PAL cable on an NTSC console the picture is usually quite a lot duller than it should be. On some TV's the picture difference can be huge, and due to the way modern LCD TV's process/scale the picture it can make the issue even worse, because technically the video signal with/without these components is 'out of spec'.

Nintendo actually redesigned the PAL SNES's entire video circuit (When compared to the NTSC SNES/Super Famicom) in order to add these resistors inside the cable. I can only assume they did this to act as a form of 'region locking' like they did with PAL SNES controllers:-

http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=controls:snes_con_region_fix

Basically Nintendo Europe seems to have wanted everything to be region locked, including the video cables, but of course unlike the SNES controllers their isnt an easy way to make a video output 'not work' without the correct cable. The best they could do was to make the picture quality worse if you didnt use their official PAL cables. On some PAL SNES motherboard revisions Nintendo even had to add extra components to counteract the components in the cables

Of course, because the N64 and GameCube used the same port they had to continue using this 'components in cables' system for all three generations, and they had to adjust the motherboard video circuitry to compensate.

This is also the reason why the PAL N64 has poor S-Video output when using a standard NTSC S-Video cable (All the Nintendo S-Video cables on ebay are NTSC or 'straight through') Unless you add extra components - its a hangover from the PAL SNES. However, because people usually upgrade to RGB with the SNES the problem with S-Video is not really well known, but of course RGB is less of an option with the N64. See this thread for more details about PAL N64 S-Video:-

http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3460.0

To the best of my knowledge Nintendo never released an official PAL S-Video cable

[smouty]

The 75ohm resistor is just for impedance matching as that is what composite inputs expect. This should ensure that the output remains standard.
The caps will only pass AC not DC so will probaly be some form of decoupling to reduce interference. So the issue is with the console not having a standard output across regions?

I don't agree that Nintendo's reason for this is region locking but compatability and limiting damage to end user equipment.